Freeview HD as a source for vintage TV

[Studio263]

There's been a lot of fuss about Freeview HD so I thought I buy a receiver and see what it's all about. In all the hype a don't remember reading that the new broadcasts will look any better on a standard TV, although it seemed obvious to me that they should.

The receiver which I bought is a Humax HD FOX-T2 which I'm using with a Labgear modulator MOD111. The modulator is connected to the CVBS / L / R RCA sockets and there's also a Sony PVM-1444QM professional monitor connected to the TV SCART socket (set to RGB in the menus). There are settings in the menu for a 4:3 picture (full screen) and for various HD resolutions, I set the latter to "auto".

Comparing BBC1 and BBC1 HD on the Sony monitor shows the difference, the picture is slightly sharper but the main advantage is the avoidance of "blockiness" in the background and at the transitions between colours. This gives everything a much smoother appearance, a bit like the UHF analogue service before they started messing about in fact! Also like analogue there are only four channels (although the receiver can receive the standard ones as well), it makes you wonder why they bothered!

The picture through the modulator also shows a marked improvement, in fact it looks just like TV used to! The next thing which I'm going to try is mixing the UHF output of the modulator into my aerial amplifier (which has a modulator input for used with domestic CCTV equipment) so that I can receive the HD programme through the tuners of all the sets in the house.

Why don't promote the benefits of Freeview HD for all types of sets, not just HD ones?

[Station X]

Interesting. Most Freview HD boxes only output the HD signal on the HDMI connection.

[paulsherwin]

The HD channels are downconverted for the SCART outputs, but you do get the benefits of greater transmission bandwidth and more modern codecs. I have to say that the improvement is fairly marginal at a normal viewing distance on my Sony 24" CRT widescreen set.

[KeithsTV]

The non HD content on the HD channels is upscaled SD and in my opinion looks no better than normal SD. Programmes generated in HD are downscaled for the SD channels and do look better on an SD TV. The TV guide will normally indicate whether it's HD and on ITV it will indicate if it's HD or upscaled SD.

You are correct in saying that HD is only available on the HDMI connection and is down converted for SD on the SCART output. This is primarily because the broadcasters do not want HD content to be easily copied in HD.

Without wishing to spark another CRT/LCD debate the best way to see HD content is on a TV capable of displaying it at its full resolution. I have an HD LCD TV and the HD pictures are superb. Before getting it, I had seen flat panel TVs on display and was not impressed by the pictures thinking the panels were responsible for the poor pictures but it is actually the freeview system that does not have sufficient bandwidth to allow a high enough data rate to give a decent picture because of the sheer number of channels being transmitted. SD freeview is better suited to being displayed on smaller CRT TVs. On large screen TVs you can start to see the deficiencies. It's a case of never mind the quality feel the width.

Keith

[Station X]

I have the same box as Studio123 and I'm pretty sure the HD signal doesn't appear on the SCART output at all.

Attempts to use an HDMI to RGB convertor on the HDMI output for feeding to a CRT HD TV resulted in failure. I'll have to see what I can do with the CVBS output.

[paulsherwin]

This seems very odd. I've never known a box which doesn't downconvert the HD. My Technika STBHDIS2010 certainly does (it also outputs as composite on a phono socket) and that's only a cheapo box.

Personally I wouldn't pay extra to get Freeview HD unless I had a large LCD or plasma TV, and then I'd probably invest in a satellite feed. The HD bitrates are significantly higher on satellite and there are many more channels available.

[Studio263]

Originally Posted by Station X

I have the same box as Studio123 and I'm pretty sure the HD signal doesn't appear on the SCART output at all.

Oh yes it does!. The HD signal (DVB-T2) signal isn't downconverted to the standard codec (DVB-T) before it goes into the video DAC - why would they want to do that? All the outputs are derrived from the HD broadcast when you are receiving an HD programme.

Remember that there is much more to HD that line count / frame rate. The video codec is greatly improved so as I explained the colours are rendered in a far more satisfactory manner as well as the level of detail being more akin to how analogue used to be (no blocks or ragged edges).

Whether the cost is worthwhile depends on what type of sets you have and how much you value top performance. The HD FOX T2 and MOD111 together cost about the same as an Aurora standards converter (e.g. very reasonable) and if you are into colour sets they perform the same function - getting the best possible picture from modern broadcasts. This morning we watched the BBC1 news (HD) on an standard Sony KV-1612UB (1981 model year) through the modulator and it looked great, on a B&O Beovision 7802 (1984) through the DIN AV input it looked even better.

The final task is to find a blank channel for a permenant installation. Since it will be on 24/7 the receiver may also have to be modified for endurance with industrial quality electrolytics (Matsushita FC series?) in the power supply and possibly a cooling fan, it runs quite hot so I don't think it will last very long otherwise.

[ppppenguin]

Originally Posted by Station X

I have the same box as Studio123 and I'm pretty sure the HD signal doesn't appear on the SCART output at all.

I think he means that the SCART carries ordinary 625 SD pictures, albeit downconverted from HD. Analogue HD is not available from the current generation of boxes and is unlikely ever to be. Partly because HDMI is now the only domestic interface standard for HD and partly because of DRM which is provided as part of HDMI.

The only way to get analogue HD is an HDMI to analogue converter, something that is not going to be officially available due to DRM. Actually there may be exceptions to this for professional kit, where the interface will normally be HD-SDI at 1.5Gb/s or 3GB/s. HD-SDI to analogue converters are readily available.

[arjoll]

Originally Posted by Studio263

Remember that there is much more to HD that line count / frame rate. The video codec is greatly improved so as I explained the colours are rendered in a far more satisfactory manner as well as the level of detail being more akin to how analogue used to be (no blocks or ragged edges).

Obviously I can't speak for the UK experience but this is certainly the case here - I thought that Freeview Satellite (SD, MPEG2) looked nice until I saw Freeview UHF (SD/HD, H.264). Even the SD channels look better with the newer codec, and upscaled SD on the HD channels is better. Of course HD is just spectacular on the 42" Panasonic LED backlit LCD.

Probably the only complaint is with the encoder Mediaworks use on their SD channels (FOUR, C4, TV3+1). While the picture is subjectively better than TVNZ's SD channels (U, TVNZ7) and Prime, Windows 7 Media Centre can take a while to 'catch up' when you skip forward!

(All references here to Freeview are to Freeview NZ)

[Station X]

I bought my Humax HD FOX-T2 specifically for use with an HD ready CRT TV. I did not realise that "FULL" HD was only available via the HDMI output.

Anyway I connected it up using first SCART and later component video leads. I couldn't see any difference at all between HD and normal channels. I accept that there is more to an HD signal than more lines, but either my TV or my eyes are not good enough for me to see the difference in picture quality.

When my CRT sets, which I love, are beyond repair I'll buy an HD set. It will obviously be an IDTV and expect it will have a built in PVR as well.

[KeithsTV]

The HD TV I bought has the ability to connect a USB hard drive up to 2TB which converts it into a PVR TV. It's only a single tuner though but it's still one of the most useful features.

Keith