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Old 7th Feb 2021, 2:39 pm   #1
SeanStevens
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Default German Light Fitting - One component too many!

Hi all - not exactly vintage this item - but it is old and I'd like advice.


I've identified that the innards have:

KNB 1543 0.1uf (MKP X1 HPF)
+
A lamp ballast - Bestell NR 922 318

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=...AAAAAdAAAAABAE


The mains cable is normal 3 wire - positive (brown wire) is connected to the big lamp ballast. The wire from the ballast then goes to a chocolate block. There are three terminals on the chocolate block, the little 0.1uf Cap is attached to this, but not to any other connected outputs.

The Earth and negative (green/yellow and Blue) are just floating about loose.

I think this is how it should go back together - but I'm unsure and don't want to burn anything!

1. I think the new mains source wire ought to go the the chocolate block. Brown positive to the wire leading to the ballast. After it has come back out of the ballast it is already connected to the brown wire that feeds the lamp.

2. The blue negative wire ought to go directly to the blue that feeds the lamp.

3. The X1 0.1uf I have doubts about. It is a capacitor capable of being placed across live to neutral or live to earth.

So with this capacitor and ballast set up, where should the X1 go?

SEAN
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 3:45 pm   #2
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Default Re: German Light Fitting - One component too many!

This idealy needs a photograph or perhaps a sketch of the existing connections.
The link in your post does not work for me.

The simplest and most common discharge lamp circuit has mains live to one terminal of the ballast, and mains neutral to one terminal of the lamp. A link then connects the other ballast terminal to the other lamp terminal.

A power factor correction capacitor is commonly connected between live and neutral.

The earth wire usually plays no part in lamp operation, it connected to exposed metal work as a safety feature.

I would advise connecting it to the mains just yet, wait until I and others can view a diagram or photo and better comment.
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 3:56 pm   #3
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Default Re: German Light Fitting - One component too many!

So sorry - like an idiot I moved photos to attach - then forgot to attach them!

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Old 7th Feb 2021, 4:22 pm   #4
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Default Re: German Light Fitting - One component too many!

I thought a class X capacitor is to be connected across the mains, not from mains to earth. And 100nF is rather too large for a capacitor to earth anyway, it would natually pass 7.5mA or so at 240V 50Hz, meaning 4 of them in parallel would be enough to trip most RCDs, not to mention a possible hazard if the earth wire came adrift.

So unless this capacitor is needed for some function to do with the lamp itself, I think it should be connected between live and neutral at the chocolate block.
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 4:33 pm   #5
Dave Moll
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Default Re: German Light Fitting - One component too many!

Quote:
Originally Posted by broadgage View Post
The link in your post does not work for me.
What it gave me was a link to http://www.dometekshop.com/index.php...oduct_id=10770, though it's difficult to see anything in the images there as they are obscured by "SOLD OUT" across them in large red letters.
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 4:58 pm   #6
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Default Re: German Light Fitting - One component too many!

The small capacitor pictured may be intended for connection across the lamp to suppres radio interference.

A larger capacitor connected across the mains is desireable for power factor correction.

The intended lamp would appear to a compact fluorescent with integral starter, but requiring an external ballast.
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 5:01 pm   #7
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Default Re: German Light Fitting - One component too many!

Thanks all,

Yes, from the looks of things

1. X rated cap should go across the mains
2. Ballast should go in line through the live
3. Earth should be to the metal casing of the internals only

I will try that via a variac and if still alive to tell the tale, let you all know what happens.

I'd have shown you the tube bulb if I could have got it out!


SEAN
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 11:40 pm   #8
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Default Re: German Light Fitting - One component too many!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanStevens View Post


The mains cable is normal 3 wire - positive (brown wire) is connected to the big lamp ballast. The wire from the ballast then goes to a chocolate block. There are three terminals on the chocolate block, the little 0.1uf Cap is attached to this, but not to any other connected outputs.

The Earth and negative (green/yellow and Blue) are just floating about loose.
There is no positive and negative on AC. They are live and neutral.

Live should go to the ballast. Other side of ballast to lamp. Other side of lamp to neutral. Earth to case. The capacitor probably goes across the lamp for RFI purposes.
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Old 8th Feb 2021, 10:17 am   #9
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Default Re: German Light Fitting - One component too many!

BTW .... lamp ballast - Bestell NR 922 318

'Bestell NR' is German for 'order number'.

Colin
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Old 8th Feb 2021, 11:24 am   #10
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Default Re: German Light Fitting - One component too many!

Quote:
Originally Posted by winston_1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanStevens View Post


The mains cable is normal 3 wire - positive (brown wire) is connected to the big lamp ballast. The wire from the ballast then goes to a chocolate block. There are three terminals on the chocolate block, the little 0.1uf Cap is attached to this, but not to any other connected outputs.

The Earth and negative (green/yellow and Blue) are just floating about loose.
There is no positive and negative on AC. They are live and neutral.

Live should go to the ballast. Other side of ballast to lamp. Other side of lamp to neutral. Earth to case. The capacitor probably goes across the lamp for RFI purposes.

Or if you really want to be terminologically exact, line and neutral.


Both line and neutral are regarded as live wires- neutral can reach a dangerous voltage to earth under some supply fault conditions.
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Old 8th Feb 2021, 3:24 pm   #11
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Default Re: German Light Fitting - One component too many!

Shall we go with brown and blue?



Anyway - I fired it up, nothing happened. I had my LW radio running to hear any crackles and pops - but nothing.

I opened the lap up and checked the bulb/tube. It is a very odd thing with little side pips - not an Eddyson or bayonet - so I'm not sure what the issue is. (OSRAM Dulux D - 26W/21 rE6)

The bulb/tube is clean and does not look blackened inside or tired. They are not cheap - at around £5 with delivery. BUT I'm not sure if the bulb/tube is the issue. I can detect voltage at the fitting - so does this need a pulse or burst of voltage to get it to start?

Sean
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Old 8th Feb 2021, 4:02 pm   #12
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Default Re: German Light Fitting - One component too many!

Have you found the starter yet? It must be attached at the tube end as I think they normally run the heaters before breaking the circuit to obtain a voltage kick from the choke.

I have a desk light with a "raw" compact flourescent tube - and I have to say that I do not know where the starter lives as the choke lives in the flex, so it must be in the light fitting - but not obvious. It certainly has one because it starts like a regular big flourescent tube!
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Old 8th Feb 2021, 4:37 pm   #13
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Default Re: German Light Fitting - One component too many!

I've seen such lamps where the starter is part of the 'bulb' assembly. That is there's the normal fluorescent tube, U-shaped or whatever, with filaments at each end. One wire from each filament is connected to a pin to go to the ballast/mains. The other end of each filament goes to the starter bulb which is hidden inside the plastic end moulding that holds those 2 pins.

Electrically it's the circuit you'd expect if you draw it out. But you won't find a separate starter and the 'bulbholder' will only have 2 wires going to it.
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Old 8th Feb 2021, 4:38 pm   #14
SeanStevens
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Default Re: German Light Fitting - One component too many!

No, there is no starter.

Just got it to work - undid the connection of the X1 capacitor across the Blue and Brown . . . It coughed and lit.

So is it ok to run without the X1 capacitor? I feel that if it is there, it is there for a purpose. . . .


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Old 8th Feb 2021, 4:47 pm   #15
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Default Re: German Light Fitting - One component too many!

Which brown/blue? If the capacitor was connected across the lamp connections as opposed to the mains connections that would kill it.
I feel sure that was what you did as connecting the capacitor across the mains input will not affect it - and that is where we would expect to see it.

There is a starter - somewhere - as I am fairly sure these kind of lamps don't start without one.

I think TonyDuell just told us where it hides!
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Old 9th Feb 2021, 1:55 am   #16
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Default Re: German Light Fitting - One component too many!

Yes, TonyDuell is right. Some compact fluorescent tubes have a built-in starter hidden inside them.

I have some examples - a Thorn 2D and a Sylvania Lynx Diamant (a copy of the Philips PL-S tube).
See this post: https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...6&postcount=51

The tubes were initially supplied with adaptors containing a ballast enabling them to replace a traditional filament lightbulb. The adaptors were not popular due to their size, weight and cost, but the tubes eventually gained acceptance in specially-designed light fitings. Desk lamps using PL-S tubes were quite popular around 15-20 years ago, and 2D tubes are still seen lighting up stairways in blocks of flats.

Usually a tube with built-in starter only has 2 pins. The tube and ballast choke are simply connected in series across the mains, as the diagram printed on the ballast shows. No other components are necessary for it to work, but a capacitor is often connected across mains live and neutral. The internal starter in the tube normally has a supression capacitor connected across it, too.
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Old 9th Feb 2021, 10:19 am   #17
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Default Re: German Light Fitting - One component too many!

Quote:
The internal starter in the tube normally has a supression capacitor connected across it, too.
If so it must be quite a small value because it effectively shorts out the starting voltage spike.
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Old 9th Feb 2021, 8:01 pm   #18
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Default Re: German Light Fitting - One component too many!

Does it light up blue?
The last lamp I saw like that was for electrocuting flies!
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