What vintage turntable?

[JonCartwright]

Hello,

I was wondering if any of you folks here could help. I've only ever listened to music on CD, but recently I've begun to feel that my CDs are becoming obsolete. Internet music seems to be where most people are headed, but I don't like the idea of my music being stored in cyberspace; I like the feel of music in my hand, and the ritual of putting it on a player of some sort. So I've decided I'm going to go vinyl instead. I always liked the idea of it - the quality, size and character. My girlfriend did too, and so I bought her a serviced Dansette for her birthday earlier this month. Not a terribly educated buy, but well received! Only now I have vinyl jealousy.

I should apologise for two things: I'm fairly ignorant of all things vinyl, and I'm not hungry for very high hi-fi, if you see what I mean. I'd like a turntable to be as much a piece of furniture as functional tool. Vintage is a must, as is wood or tolex over some sort of cutting-edge NASA composite/carbon fibre/whatever turntables are made of these days. I'm sure many of you share my preference!

So I have two ideas. One is that I get a portable record player like the Dansette, but maybe a make that is more quality over vintage value. I've searched these forums and Hackers come up a lot. What are the better models, and what should I look out for? I've always had a soft spot for valves over transistors.

The other idea is that I get a standalone turntable. I don't have a separate amp or speakers yet, so I'd have to plug it into my current (not too bad) Hitatchi CD player/amp. Eventually I would get a separate (valve) amp etc, but in the short term I can't afford it. So my question here is - again considering I'm into aesthetics - what sort of vintage turntables should I be looking at? I've had a look at Pioneer PL12Ds on eBay. They look OK but aren't exactly blowing me away with their beauty. (Obviously I can't assess the sound.) I also saw a review of a so-called Empire 598 in a recent issue of "Hi-Fi World". Wow - that looks good - but it also appears to be rare and rather expensive. I'd like to cap my budget around the £100 mark, although I would save up if there's something extra-special for a bit more.

So...any helpers? I'm prepared to spend a little time learning if it means I can get a better player, and I'm technically minded.

Jon

[Audio1950]

In my humble opinion, you couldn't do better than a Hacker, if you're going down the route of a portable player They were the best record players on the market, which was reflected in the price, and to my mind, still are. Bear in mind that you would be wise to spend a bit of cash having it thoroughly checked over, and any suspect comopnents replaced, as after forty-odd years, even the best components are prone to failure. To plug it in and play it, even if it sounds ok, is false economy, for when something does go bang, it well may do some very expensive damage.

Barry

[EMT TSD15]

Lenco GL75 or GL78 is my recommendation.

They have vintage looks, play very well in standard form and, if the bug bites you, can be modded to produce an outstanding turntable.

They can still be found for a reasonable price too.

[Ed_Dinning]

Hi Jon, if you want a classic, quite good turntable that was very popular in its time look out for an SP25. This was simply a turntable, usually on a teak plinth and possibly with a perspex cover. You will need some sort of amp and speakers to go with this and I'm sure forum members will ghave their own ideas.

Ed

[vinrads]

Hi just interested in the modds on a GL75 ?

[howard]

I'd recommend the Pioneer PL12D or similar. It was released in 1972 and was the best selling budget turntable in the UK until the Rega and Dual turntables arrived later in the 1970s. It is well built, easy to maintain, spare parts are available for it and just about any MM cartridge will work well in it. There are plenty still around and they're not expensive.

If looking for a classic British turntable > 25 years old, look out for the Rega Planar 2 or 3, Systemdek III and Ariston RD 11.

See pics of loads of turntables here ...

http://www.vinylengine.com/

Howard

[JoshWard]

Agree on a GL75. Unlike other older turntables these have fairly low mass tonearms and will play new vinyl very well without causing any damage.
As mentioned they can be modified easily (see the Lenco Heaven web forum for further information) and are still cheap (although prices are creeping up, maybe I should stop recommending them?).

You will of course need a decent amp and speakers but you can get a proper vintage set up which will be a serious Hi-Fi.

Edit: Howard's recommendations of Systemdeks and Regas is also a wise idea, popular turntables and they work well.

[Jonster]

A separate turntable to go with your Hitachi system is a good start, but does it have a phono input stage? You cant use a decent quality (ie magnetic as opposed to ceramic) cartridge with an aux or other spare input. You can get external phono pre-amplkifier stages though.

[jonniepotter]

I thought Lenco Heaven went or is it back in some form or other?

ps
The Lenco is a brilliant turntable

do not buy a belt drive model of the lenco

idler drive is the best option to go for.

[JonCartwright]

Fantastic, thanks for all those responses. They're really helpful. Perhaps the GL75 are the best bet, since they seem to go for less money than the Regas and Systemdeks.

One more question, if I may: JoshWard mentioned that "new vinyl" will still play well on a GL75. Am I right in thinking, then, one should take into account the period of vinyl one wants to play when buying an old turntable? (Is that a result of the switch to stereo recording?) I ask because actually my music tastes are a little anachronistic anyway - I listen to a lot of old (pre 60s) blues for starters. If I buy a record deck suited to older music, will it be more detrimental to newer music and vice versa?

[Patrick Dixon]

A GL75 (or Rega/Systemdek/PL12D) is good enough, with a good enough arm, that it shouldn't damage new vinyl significantly. An older deck or portable player will probably not be as kind to your records.

If you buy a separate deck (and you should if you are at all serious about sound quality), then you should also factor in that you might need a phono amp to amplify the phono cartridge output up to a level sufficient to feed into your amp/CDP - assuming that your amp doesn't have a dedicated 'phono' input.

You should regard the cartridge/stylus as a consumable, and check and/or replace any that you buy secondhand along with a deck.

I'd go for a GL75 too - they come badged as Goldring and Leak as well as Lenco.

[D_S_J_R]

I've noticed GL75's are rocketing in price now all the Garrard 301's/401's/Thorens 124's and lenco's own separate turntables are fetching such huge money. Be warned, practically ALL of these will need some work done on them, the tonearm bearing blocks especially, although I do agree that they're lovely and can sound incredibly good in a genuine giant-killing sense. Even the heavy old tonearms on GL70/75/78 can take modern cartridges with ease, the 70 needing an Ortofon OM pro or GT and the later ones, modern Goldrings amongst others by pickering, Stanton and Shure, tracking at 1,75g or so.

Another old favourite maker which will be fine if it hasn't been got at, is Thorens. You can still pick up a good TD160 for peanuts (the earlier TD150 goes for a bit more). Original belts are readily available again for around £20 and once again, the once clanky old tonearms can happily take many 1.75g trackers at the £125 level or so.

Try to look out for a vintage Dual IDLER deck (or the direct drive 701). The belt driven 505 series sold in thousands (and is a better bet than the PL12D sonically), but isn't as heavily built or as good sounding as a 1219 for example. Anything from the 1216 upwards (1019, 1218, 1219, 1229) would be a painless and great sounding way of listening to your vinyl and they're automatic too - to the highest standards

One contemporary maker I love dearly for performance and service is REGA! A good Planar 2 can be had for under £100 still (they hold their value rather well) and with a spruce up with a bearing clean and lube with EP80, nut tightening, new belt and something light and rigid to sit it on, will give you decades of listening pleasure still.

Old vintage vinyl spinners are huge fun, but will need some input from yourself to counter the fun and pleasure you'll get out, as even the best are pushing forty years old now, if not older. I love listening to old "transportable" record players, but remember even the Hacker GP42 I owned and loved (I'm sure my sample with retro-fitted Garrard AT60 was on fleabay very recently) has a frequency range not much different to a telephone (no real treble and no really deep bass) and the HMV 2024 I've recently ended up with sounds like a small transistor radio, only louder

Good luck - look on the Lenco forum and also the Record Player thread on HDD for a giggle. Some of my record-manglers are pictured on there

[dave walsh]

You seem likely to end up in the hi fi seperates area Jon. I can understand your initial confusion but it's not about the "period" of the vinyl just simply that older decks [stand alone or in portable record players] need the attention as described. A less delicate deck [eg chunky arm] can play modern vinyl without damage but it will need to be set up correctly. The SP25 that Ed D mentioned [circa 68/69] was one of the first relatively cheap modern designs that came out and sold a lot for those reasons. The advice on decks is all very sound and should you find a cheap GL75 or PL12, go for it but if finances are limited, I suggest you avoid being too rigid re wanting "vintage" equipment. In the end it's all down to individual taste even with all the technical measurement in the world-especially when it comes to vinyl.

Be prepared to try anything relatively modern that comes your way [sometimes you might need to take the whole system to get the deck]. Once you start making enquiries through friends and family, asking on Freecycle etc you may be surprised what turns up-perhaps for free! At that point your existing "player" will need a pre-amp [as others have said] to electronically match the very low output on a modern cartridge to the level which the input on your CD player will expect to see. If there is a Richer Sounds near you they seem to do one for £19 [re the amps that they sell without a magnetic cartridge input]. Their advice is usually pretty good as well but you will need to avoid staggering out with the "very latest" thing!
Dave W

[kalee20]

Originally Posted by Ed_Dinning

if you want a classic, quite good turntable that was very popular in its time look out for an SP25

This is a good turntable, up to at least Mk iv. Idler wheel driven, fairly substantial, not plasticky. Work well with a magnetic cartridge (for which, as others have pointed out, you may need a preamplifier) or with a crystal/ceramic. They do produce a bit of rumble but they were the basis of many decent budget hi-fi systems and you had to spend quite a lot more to get anything much better.

[oldnick]

Thorens TD160. Well made, nice arm good quality and sound. Find one with an SME 3009 and it'll rock but might be above budget. Buy with a good cover and all you'll ever need to replace is the belt. Rotel RP1500/3000 are lookers and not bad.

[JonCartwright]

Hello everyone,

Thanks again for all these responses. I've had a look at the Thorens, but I fear it will be a little out of my price range, and I think the additional quality will be lost on my current CD player/amp. I should probably go for a cheaper turntable and then think about getting myself a dedicated amp.

Dave Walsh - thanks for the tips. Sadly the Bristol Freecycle is pretty awful, although I can ask friends who live elsewhere to keep a look out in their areas. It's eBay for me!

[D_S_J_R]

For cheapness sake, the SP25 can't really be beaten. Spares can be got, idler wheels last well (usually) and with the mech free'd off, it's handy. The better "DJ" style cartridges like the Ortofon OM pro, Stanton 500V3/Pickering V15 EV and Shures will be happy in these decks and your records will be safe too

[JoshWard]

Originally Posted by JonCartwright

One more question, if I may: JoshWard mentioned that "new vinyl" will still play well on a GL75. Am I right in thinking, then, one should take into account the period of vinyl one wants to play when buying an old turntable?

A lot of older cheaper stuff such as Dansettes don't have high quality low mass tonearms and stand a reasonable chance of trashing new vinyl. Older records (pre 1980s stereo or mono ones) seem to be less fragile and can cope with heavier crude tonearms as they were often designed to be played on that type of system. New vinyl is really designed to be played on 'audiophile' equipment as that is what most people who buy new vinyl tend to listen on.

jonniepotter, the Lenco Heaven site is now back up and running.

[rovereab]

Just a thought, how about a BSR MP60 or HT70? The MP60 I had years ago seemed to be pretty good on performance and looked good too.

Eamonn

[D_S_J_R]

The MP60 ran slightly fast and rumbled more than the SP25mkIII when new (40 years of intermittant use may have changed this by now), but the HT70 was better. Garrard didn't really have a direct competitor to the HT70, unless the AP76 cost around the same or slightly more.