Bush AC34 cabinet veneer

[davidgem1406]

Hi all,

I have a Bush model AC32 that I need to re-veneer the cabinet, I have 2 questions.

1/. This cabinet has a rounded front edge at the top what is the best way to secure the veneer round this edge. Normally I would use PVA adhesive for this sort of job, but I cant think of a way to clamp up round this top edge. Would contact adhesive be a better option this time?

2/. The existing veneer looks very much like Mahogany but the finishes do not. Any ideas on the original finishes? The front and sides are different with the sides being somewhat darker.

My intention is to re-veneer using Mahogany then finish using Deep Mahogany for the front and top with Dark Oak for the sides.

Regards
Dave...

[Andy - G8MNM]

Hi,

Col (Retired) is the guy to speak to!
He had a similar job to do on his Ekco TV cabinet restoration.

Regards

Andy

[davidgem1406]

Hi Andy

Thanks for the info...

Regards
Dave

[brenellic2000]

Veneering bends is never easy as you need constant, even, pressure to stop buckling. You can get away with steel band type cramps often used in picture framing with a good quality 3mm ply backing former with transverse battens at strategic places with edge cramps, if the shape allows.

An impact adhesive, or if skilled enough, Scotch glue and a hot iron (clean it before you do your shirts!, may be easier.

Good luck!
Barry

[KEITHW]

Hi Dave,

I haven't actually seen one of these in the flesh, but having looked at the ones that come up on Google images, the cabinet is definitely veneered in walnut and not mahogany.

Best wishes,
Keith

[davidgem1406]

Hi Barry,
That sounds a bit complex, and I don't have band clamps. May be able to find some way to clamp it up but not found it so far.
I have seen ready made iron on veneer but i think it was pretty expensive though. Maybe contact adhesive is the answer as that is an immediate stick down, with some luck.

Hello Steve,
Yes this one has that panel also a thin framework around the tuning scale and speaker aperture that is also much lighter in color. The one i have definitely has the sides a shade darker and the veneer looks different than the front and top.
Maybe at the end of the day all one color is the way to go, makes it easier.

Hi keith,
Thanks for that info, so far I have found Walnut in American, European and Australian. They all look different the nearest being American. Unfortunately the Walnut sheet sizes are smaller meaning more joins to make.

Thanks for all the info guys, and have a good weekend.
Regards
Dave.

[brenellic2000]

Dave,

American Walnut is usually 'Black American Walnut', much darker than European/Italian walnut which would have been used here.

As with veneers (and solid wood) matching grain (and stain) is 99.9% luck as it all depends on how the veneer was cut - crown cut, sawn, full rotary (as per cheapo plywood) or semi-rotary off a quarter sawn log... while staining and depth of colour depends entirely on the porosity of the wood, oil or water borne vegetable or mineral dye and base coat!

As a professional furniture maker, I don't use veneers - they're too much hassle!

As to clamping, make some plywood formers to the right curve, block them out with spacers to get an even pressure and cramp up.

For impact adhesive use a Thixotropic glue - (Dunlop Thixofix) as it allows repositioning - before it is too late!

Good luck!
Barry

[davidgem1406]

Hi Barry,
I will take a look again to see what is available in European Walnut, I think I found the sheets to narrow making to many joins.

As for the info about how it is cut etc. sorry I haven't got a clue.

I'm not sure what you are meaning when you say "block them out with spacers" but I am assuming you mean spacers the same thickness as the veneer to keep the former to the same level when clamped up.

If I go to the lengths of making plywood formers I would then go back to using PVA adhesive as using contact adhesive was to enable an instant bond around the corner and thus avoiding formers and the problem of how to clamp it up.
Never done it before so it was just an idea.

Thanks
Dave

[brenellic2000]

Think of a balsa-wood aeroplane's wing construction of several formers spaced out along a spa - to get an even pressure on the veneer. Needless to say the veneer should be bent axially (with the grain) no across it!

I suspect the thin veneers you've been looking at are pre-glued edge-banding to transform cheap MDF into expensive look a like wood (these veneers are <0.5mm thin). Veneers come in all widths (depending on how they are cut). Try John Boddy or Axminster Power Tools, or any decent wood-workers suppliers - by which I don't mean B&Q and their ilk!

A local furniture restorer worth his salt will help you, I'm sure.

Good luck!
Barry

[Retired]

Hi,

Many thanks for the recommendation Andy in post #2.

It all depends on how much patience you have Dave as veneering is extremely difficult but not impossible to do by a novice and here is the thread Andy kindly mentioned;

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=62371

I only ever use hot hide glue for veneering; it is difficult to use at first but the best for the job because it can be reversed even after 100 years whereas ordinary woodworking and contact adhesives are permanent. I would never ever use contact adhesive on a vintage cabinet; I learnt the hard way over 30 years ago when I laid my first veneers using contact adhesive on an eight foot long sideboard; it was perfect for a few years then one day a joint decided to open up on the top panel and there was little I could do to repair it.

Veneers laid with hot hide glue will still remain laid a couple of hundred years later as long as they are not subjected to moisture; hide glue has tremendous strength and is unsurpassed for this work. Getting used to veneering and using hide glue is very rewarding and the techniques are quickly learnt with a little practice; I hope my thread at the above link is of use as it not only covers flat panels but how I overcame the problem of veneering a curved top panel front.

Good luck and do you have any pictures please of the cabinet?


Kind regards, Col.

[brenellic2000]

I completely agree with Col, but as he rightly points out, Hide (or the bone derived Scotch) glues takes a lot of experience (and much trial and error!) as the hot liquid glue cools to a solid quickly. It is thus difficult to make a good job over a large area being veneered as you can't hide poor prep - although Scotch glue has good gap filling properties - hence the move to 'more easily' applied iron-on veneers!

These animal derived glues are indeed easily reversible with a hot iron / air-gun and also methylated spirits, which slowly disolves the glue for removal ... in time. It is also a time-tested policy to always use the same glue as the orginal to ensure proper adhesion. But....

For the novice (and a later restorer repairing the work), an impact glue is more easily dissolved and removed with spirits (and then Fullers' earth) than is PVA, which hardens, becomes brittle, stains the wood and prevents other glues 'penetrating' the fibres for adhesion.

As I say, have a word with a local furniture restorer!
Barry

[davidgem1406]

Hi Barry,

Thanks I understand now what you are meaning by the spacers.

The veneer I was looking at are not pre-glued. I now have a sheet on its way that is Walnut, 23cm x 310cm and 0.6mm thick.

You say that animal derived glues are reversible using a hot air gun. Does that mean if the veneer did not lay correctly first time could it be repositioned by heating it, or is that just wishful thinking? and the veneer is done for once glued.

Hello Col,

Thanks for joining in, patience is the one thing I have plenty of. I realize it is not an easy thing to do but one way or another I will do it.. I will take a look at the info at the link you supplied, thanks.

As for the hide glue, that brings back some memories. My father used to use that when I was very young. I still remember the smell filling the house as it was heated on the gas in a pan of water.
My father came home one time with a paper bag in his hands and of course me being me I had to know what was in the bag, so he showed me.
I asked what it was and was told toffee. Of course I wanted some then so he placed a piece in my mouth. I still remember the taste, wasn't to good..

As for using it is another question as I don't have any outside facilities I can use, I would also have to find somewhere that still supplies it, but I will check and see.

There are no pictures of the cabinet as is, so I will take a couple and post them latter.

Thanks for the info Col

Regards
Dave

[davidgem1406]

Hi Col,

Images of cabinet as you requested.

[Radio_Dave]

Looks fine to me. What's wrong with it?

David

[brenellic2000]

Yes, animal glues are reversible - but you'll more than likely destroy the 0.6mm thin veneer if you try to reposition it at later date. The original veneers of yesteryear were a lot thicker, 0.6mm is "thick" by today's standards - you could see their thickness with the naked eye!

I have a proper 36" dia veneer saw-blade for my big rip-saw; that was designed for cutting proper veneers - it was a man's world in those days of real veneers!

You can get 'liquid hide' glue in plastic bottles - they're not cheap! and I've never used them myself... Experiment on scrap piece of wood and have a word with a local furniture restorer!

You could always try walnut-effect Fablon - good old Woolworths! - if all else fails....

Barry

[davidgem1406]

Hi David

If you look at the side views you will see at the front and top the front panel plywood edges are showing white. It looks to have been made that way but I think it will always show under the final varnishing.
Also at the front view on the top right hand side edge you will see some lighter patches that's where the veneer is so thin the ply is showing white. There is also a patch like that on the top. Some veneer around the aperture edges is splitting.
The top veneer also has a lot of small cracks showing.
I'm not sure if this veneer was very thin to start with or if I took to much of when cleaning it down.

Hi Barry

Yes, I did think it was wishful thinking to be able to move the veneer whilst keeping it whole.

Hmm, 36" dia. you got a saw mill there.. lol Do you actually use it though?

I will look and see if I can get some of the original solid glue (slabs of toffee) and go from there. Don't know of a furniture restorer around here, never had reason to look, so far.

The Fablon is not for me as I am pretty sure I can do the veneer job, may take some time and some pain maybe, with the info available here I will get there.

Thanks all
Regards
Dave

[brenellic2000]

Oh yes, all fully working pre-war machinery!

The 'slabs of toffee' are more usually Scotch glue - you can get it in 'pearls' (small beads) which are are far easier for small jobs. You'll need a special double boiling pot (the big one holds water which is boiling to melt the dry pearls on the smaller - like chocolate!)... and a round paint brush for applying the glue. Persevere on scrap pieces first as this requires quite some skill... and is why I avoid veneering - too much aggro!!

Try Axminster Power Tools, John Boddy or Tilgear for glue and pots - forget about the electric pot unless you intend doing a lot of this work.

If your are sufficiently interested, George Buchanan's "Illustrated handbook of furniture restoration" (Batsford Press) is a useful book for the novice (and those who've forgotten!!).

Enjoy!

Barry

[Radio_Dave]

Hi Barry,

Ok, it sounds worse than it looks. However it's worth mentioning that those white patches, at the edges, where the veneer has been sanded through are a common occurrence on vintage radios. It was done in the factory and their "fix" would be to paint in the damage while painting the "end grain" of the plywood (yes I know there shouldn't be "end grain" showing but some were veneered first and then assembled).

... Getting back to your problem, how about those sheets of heat activated adhesive for veneer? The are laid between the veneer and cabinet and then an iron is used to stick it all together. Maybe the front veneer could be soaked in water first to help it around the curve at the top

HTH
David

[brenellic2000]

... and to think customers pay much more for a gossamer thin veneered cabinet made from a ply or blockboard carcass over a solid wood one! Ho hum....!!

[davidgem1406]

Hi Barry,

I found the glue in pearls on old Ebay, but will check the price against the places you have listed. Will also be looking at the cost of a pot, wont be electric but I may get a temperature controlled hot plate to put the pot on, second user item hopefully.

After this Bush I have an Ekco to do as it is painted white and not looking to good but that's another story to come.


Hello David,

I did suspect that the sides were built before the cabinet was assembled, not very good as you say. I did think that maybe I had thinned the veneer with my sanding down, nice to know it may not have been so.

I wont be using iron on adhesive and will go with the hot glue job and see how it goes, I'm pretty confident that I can do it , time will tell... hmmm...
I have the veneer, sourced the glue and just need to sort the pot, may even make one up dependent on what I can find in the pound shop..

Once done will put up some pictures

Regards Dave