Has ‘Paxolin’ ever contained asbestos?

[stuarth]

What does the HSE have to say on this? They seemed to have a much more Common Sense view of electrical appliance testing than some of the people and companies offering PAT services.

Stuart

[M0FYA Andy]

I've dug out my 68-page Tufnol catalogue, dated April 1962. It lists twelve grades of Tunol, for which they use the term 'Brands'. All are code-named after various birds, fish and animals.

The Brand of interest here is 'ASP', with the description -

'ASP Brand has an asbestos base, is greenish brown in colour and is for use at high working temperatures.Other brands should not be used at temperatures higher than 100 degs C, but ASP will safely withstand temperatures as high as 165 degs C. In some cases, depending on conditions, it can be used at temperatures up to 200 degs C. It is available in sheets, tubes, rods, bars, angles and channels.'

The other Brands all have either paper or fabric bases.

Andy

[The Philpott]

'It just might do, we can't be sure, so we'll sticker it anyway', which is fair enough really.
The history of composites is so mired with variations that it's conceivable that anything could contain anything. One of our local churches had to have the spacemen in when some of the plaster crumbled away...not from panic over falling plaster, but from panic over dormant anthrax. If they'd tested a sample and it showed up OK, an adjacent lump could have fallen off which was not OK......so it was a fait accompli to use PPE etc.

Dave

[Phil G4SPZ]

Originally Posted by stuarth

What does the HSE have to say on this?

Never ask an HSE inspector for advice. A colleague of mine once did that, and the organisation received an immediate Improvement Notice. Their logic is, “if you have to ask our advice, you have not fully assessed the risks”.

Thanks Andy for identifying “ASP branded Tufnol” as being the only asbestos-bearing material of this type, and of course it’s significantly different from Paxolin.

The Museum’s take on this is that they have to make sure that anything they ask me or my fellow volunteers to repair is safe and without risks to health, as far as is reasonably practicable. Being non-specialists, the management choose to discharge that duty by having incoming items assessed by a specialist, with an obvious focus on asbestos as that is the most likely harmful material to be contained inside a vintage radio or electrical appliance. The so-called specialists clearly apply the precautionary principle to the n’th degree by declaring that hazards “might” be present if the equipment is opened up. A good example is a vintage hairdryer, which almost certainly contains asbestos within the element, over which a fan blows air straight into the face of the user…

But I digress. The Museum’s approach is not under criticism here. The specialist surveyors, however, have specifically suggested that asbestos can be found in Paxolin. I am quite prepared to challenge them to provide evidence to support their conjecture, and as a consequence I really appreciate such detailed input from those who’ve responded.

Many thanks again!

[Maarten]

While some vintage hairdryers contain asbestos, mica also was and is a very common material for winding heating elements on, so I don't think they almost certainly contain asbestos.

[Phil G4SPZ]

Absolutely correct. Thank you for pointing that out.

[stuarth]

For the surveyors to put a label on an old radio about Paxolin, which is unlikely to contain asbestos and even less likely to release asbestos, and yet to not mention possible deteriorating heat shielding materials, seems odd, to say the least. It also seems odd to “survey” some old equipment without looking inside it for actually risky materials.

Who does the initial dismantling and goes “ooo-er”, or “nah, that’s ok” or even “ok, but don’t drill holes in that bit” (like Nick’s hospital doors)?

Stuart

[Phil G4SPZ]

Originally Posted by stuarth

…Who does the initial dismantling and goes “ooo-er”, or “nah, that’s ok” or even “ok, but don’t drill holes in that bit”…?

Me!

I got the impression the ‘surveyors’ were referring to some sort of list, detailing every possible vintage object that could possibly have asbestos, or components potentially containing asbestos, inside it or as part of its construction. Thus, no need for them to dismantle; no doubt a more in-depth survey could be conducted for an additional fee.

[stuarth]

Good to know it’s somebody competent then!

Stuart

[Phil G4SPZ]

[Richardgr]

Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler

We're into territory where the deciding factor is "Might" augmented by "We can't check to find out for fear of exposure"

It's a bit like the accusation of witchcraft.

...

Quite! "If it burns then it was OK!"

[ppalped]

Originally Posted by stuarth

After any obvious fibrous heat shielding materials (which the surveyors would not know about if they didn’t look inside the set), I think the most worrying thing inside an old set would be the dust collected over the years. Without knowing where the set was used, who knows what’s in that dust. I wouldn’t worry about the Paxolin. How did the surveyors know there was Paxolin in them anyway?

Stuart

Indeed - that's one thing that comes to my mind when I end up opening a very old piece of equipment where its origin is mainly unknown, and a little cloud of dust just bursts into the air when you gently (or semi-forcefully) press the case/chassis to open it for the first time in decades. I'm not sure how much asbestos you need to be exposed to die from it, but one thing that I'm almost certain is that I probably have been exposed to it (in dust form) somewhere along my life, given how common it was (and probably still is).

Regarding Paxolin - I'm not an expert in materials nor a doctor, but I wouldn't worry much about it as a primary source of health issues - but I would leave that for the experts to decide of course - if they say "yes - it's dangerous", I wouldn't be the one to say "no - it's not".

Alex

[stevehertz]

Originally Posted by ppalped

Indeed - that's one thing that comes to my mind when I end up opening a very old piece of equipment where its origin is mainly unknown, and a little cloud of dust just bursts into the air when you gently (or semi-forcefully) press the case/chassis to open it for the first time in decades. I'm not sure how much asbestos you need to be exposed to die from it, but one thing that I'm almost certain is that I probably have been exposed to it (in dust form) somewhere along my life, given how common it was (and probably still is).

Regarding Paxolin - I'm not an expert in materials nor a doctor, but I wouldn't worry much about it as a primary source of health issues - but I would leave that for the experts to decide of course - if they say "yes - it's dangerous", I wouldn't be the one to say "no - it's not".

Alex

It's said to be a very small amount, I've heard that a single fibre can cause lung cancer.

[Craig Sawyers]

My Dad spent years in the Merchant Navy in the 50's to early 60's on oil tankers of pre-WW2 stock. Tiny vessels by today's standards. He worked in the engine room.

All the steam pipes were lagged with asbestos.

At one stage there was a steam blow out, which resulted in large amounts of asbestos in the air, and coating all surfaces. He used to describe that during the clean up, he had to use a matchstick to remove plugs of asbestos from his nostrils.

He died early, at the age of 71. But from nothing to do with the huge amount of asbestos he'd breathed in. It was heart failure as a direct consequence of smoking 60 a day for most of his adult life.

Because of my mentioning asbestos, they did an autopsy and not surprisingly found significant levels of asbestos in his lungs. But that is not what killed him.

He was cremated; no idea what happened to the asbestos in the process.

Craig

[Craig Sawyers]

Asbestos was what killed Steve McQueen aged 50. He blamed it on removing asbestos lagging in troopship pipes.

Craig

[Phil G4SPZ]

Well, this is the enigma of asbestos. Some people survive having been exposed all their lives, whilst others succumb to extremely small doses. I have heard that the risk can be estimated by the average exposure in ‘fibre-years’ (a bit like ‘packet-years’ for cigarette smokers) but as has been said, there is no safe lower limit.

Craig, sorry to hear about your father. However you make an interesting point about the asbestos, at least some of which would have made its way into the ashes.

[The Philpott]

Likewise.
.....and yes, i had heard that there is a difference in vulnerability to Mesothelioma, ARPD etc. from individual to individual, so everyone has to assume that they ARE vulnerable to it.

Dave

[Craig Sawyers]

It is nearly 30 years since my dad died - in fact, being born in 1923 he would have been 100 had he lived. He never would have got there though - he had the typically tough life of a worker from that era.

Craig