Beatles Mixing Console Auction

[knobtwiddler]

Originally Posted by Valvepower

I suppose I could contact MJQ to see if they still have a list of the equipment in the "The Sale of the Century"…, however, I don’t know how approachable MJQ are regards enquires like that?

Terry

I'm sure they'll be highly approachable if you're interested in a property. You could put that in the header of your email, pretend that you're after a recording studio with rooftop swimming pool, and put at the end 'BTW, I don't suppose...'

[Valvepower]

Nice one

…Or

Mr B Springsteen here..., Having just sold my back catalogue for a tidy 'ole sum, and now with a bit of folding cash behind the 'ole clock on the mantelpiece I’m looking for information on etc., etc...

Sorry, best keep on topic.

Terry

[mhennessy]

Originally Posted by knobtwiddler

edit - and I won't get into 0dBFS, i.e. if a performer is a little liberal with their dynamics and they manage to hit it, ouch! A decent analogue mixer can take upwards of +20dBu on its bus before clipping occurs. Of course, you can pad before the A-D to prevent clipping, but you sacrifice SNR. If I still worked in live sound I wouldn't want the bother of a juggernaut loaded with analogue gear, but I don't see how digital equates to better reliability.

Where I work we have a lot of digital desks which replaced analogue desks - we've got a fairly decent sample size to give a bit of an idea of the comparative reliability. Most sound desks that I know about at work are more than 15 years old, and while some might be showing their age in terms of the design and user interface, they've been impressively reliable. The issues tend to be "daft" things like backlight inverters and occasional power supply stuff - which can affect anything...

Yes, a digital desk retains analogue electronics at the inputs and outputs - although of course a lot of IO is done via AES3, MADI and AoIP. But there are far fewer electrolytics in the signal path now. Probably down to single figures for one analogue input and one output path. Compare that to analogue desks...

But against digital might be stability if the firmware isn't perfect. In broadcast, I don't recall seeing that, and it would be quickly fixed if there was an issue (usually in the selection/acceptance stage, before they make it out into the wild). But I have had problems with a Soundcraft Performer Si desk at our local school/arts centre, improved (but not cured) by a firmware update after years of complaining. Harmon haven't always been very good at supporting their products in my experience.

As to headroom, don't forget that most live sound desks run with a 4dB offset, so 0dBFS is +22dBu. Also, internal levels and bit depths (hence dynamic range) are entirely up to the manufacturer to decide at each part of the chain, and it's common to have very deep bit depths for mix buses. Some prefer to use floating point. I remember one manufacturer of broadcast desks claiming that their mix buses had 300dB of dynamic range, and even the entry level Qu series from Allen & Heath uses 56 bits (336dB)! Doubt you'd get that in the analogue domain

For mic pre-amps, there is always an analogue pre-amp before the ADC, and that can usually be adjusted in 1dB steps to give up to 60dB of gain, and perhaps 20dB of attenuation (again, in 1dB steps). There might be a separate pad if needed, usually a fixed 10 or 20dB. Either way, optimising the signal level ahead of the ADC is not difficult. That said, every digital sound desk I've measured has a slightly higher noise floor on the mic inputs than the best analogue desks. But it's never been an issue in practice - and there's nothing stopping you from using outboard pre-amps if you're doing something that is especially esoteric with a low output ribbon mic, for example. But that's a tiny price to pay in exchange for the flexibility - there's really no debate in most scenarios. Compared to vision mixers, it did take a while for digital to be the obvious default assumption for a sound desk, but they're really come of age.

All that is before you consider how remote stage boxes mean that you don't need to run a massive analogue "snake" from the stage to the FoH position - you can do it all with a single cat 5 cable.

Which leads(!) me on to my final consideration: as cables and connectors are the least reliable part of any electronic system (with pots and switches not far behind), that's not only another reason why I'm really happy that I don't need to carry and plug up (hopefully correctly!) all the "outboard" that you needed in the analogue days, but also I think that's a significant factor for reliability

The argument holds up for fixed installations too. How many times have we fixed a fault by re-seating plugs/sockets? Or in broadcast specifically, given all the PO (or 1/4" TRS) jacks a vigorous twist?

OK, rotary encoders and push-button membrane switches on digital desks can eventually become unreliable (although the membrane contacts are usually gold plated and doubled up). And motorised faders can play up. In which case, just control everything with your iPad. Before having a stage box, I did entire shows on the iPad, and was confident in doing so. Even if I'm at the desk surface, I'll still have the iPad running, giving me quick access to certain things, or showing level meters for the every input channel and output on one screen. I might choose to alter certain things like EQ and dynamics using the iPad because the drag interface is more intuitive and faster than turning rotaries.

That said, I accept that a digital sound desk becomes a larger "single point of failure", and for a few critical gigs that have involved a fair bit of travel, I have been known to carry a spare from work. Luckily, most of what I do away from the day job uses a little Qu16, and one of those easily fits in the front footwell of my car. Once sound-checked, I save the show to a USB, so a changeover would take about 30 seconds. But I've never need it. Despite the much lower cost compared to broadcast, live sound gear has to be ultra-reliable - I'd much rather have a broadcast desk lock up on me than my live sound desk, because I'm in the same room as the hundreds of upset punters

Cheers,

Mark

[knobtwiddler]

Word on the street is that the 'Beatles console' went for £1.9 Million... It sold just over an hour ago. I am going to ask for a commission after posting at this group.

[knobtwiddler]

Update: bidding got to £1.9 million, but it didn't meet the reserve!!! The seller is in negotiations behind the scenes apparently... You all know how to contact Mr Jackson!

[The Philpott]

That's the most amusing result i could have hoped for, thankyou. Meanwhile, on Planet Earth...

Dave

[paulsherwin]

The price doesn't surprise me, it's the sort of thing that would be bought by very rich people in the music industry. I doubt if it will ever be used as a serious studio desk again.

Rod Stewart has just spent a fortune relocating his huge American model railroad layout from his LA mansion to his equally large English estate prior to moving back to the UK. These people live in a completely different world to the rest of us.

[Hartley118]

Originally Posted by knobtwiddler

Word on the street is that the 'Beatles console' went for £1.9 Million... It sold just over an hour ago. I am going to ask for a commission after posting at this group.

If that’s the true value, it would have radically changed our pricing policy at Neve!

Martin

[knobtwiddler]

On the social media feed where I was following the story, a musician posted this (in keeping with Paul's sentiment):

I'm sure it will come to a good home in Hollywood hills. There are plenty of Beatles fans amongst lawyers and doctors

As someone who's passionate about audio gear, I have to be honest and say that I'm not that bothered if it winds up in the garage of a celebrity dentist somewhere. The great producer Arif Mardin gave his last ever interview to SOS magazine, where he remarked that he wasn't particularly bothered as to whose brand of console he recorded / mixed a project on. As long as it was of a professional standard - well maintained, clean and quiet in action, then he was happy. Nerds such as myself preoccupy themselves (rightly, I think) with specs, as it's an engineering challenge, and we want to know who went to the greatest lengths to get the design the most free of hiss / crosstalk etc. But in the real world, once something gets beyond a certain standard, this is all pretty academic. Someone as good as Mardin would've made great sounding records with a Mackie desk.

[knobtwiddler]

Originally Posted by Hartley118

If that’s the true value, it would have radically changed our pricing policy at Neve!

Martin

I'm pretty sure that some of the 8000-series Neves have topped 1-million USD in recent times. There was one recently that was commissioned by Wally Heider himself. If I'd bought bitcoins when my friend told me to and they were under a pound each, I'd have bought that. Not because I think it'd make better records (chops make good records), but simply to think of what it had made... I'd sneak out and stroke it every night like a cat...

[paulsherwin]

Once things went digital, everything changed. Abbey Road could make better recordings with less than 10k's worth of kit - you just need a fast computer, some decent software and lots of USB interfaces for the analogue channels. This was becoming true even in the mid 80s when people like SAW, Trevor Horn and David Gamson were doing most of their studio mixing with computers.

Live performance is obviously a different matter though.

[Cruisin Marine]

A lot of these Beatles rarities get bought by the rich Japanese, and maybe now the Chinese "Noveaue Riche", they regard it purely as an investment.

[jamesperrett]

Originally Posted by paulsherwin

This was becoming true even in the mid 80s when people like SAW, Trevor Horn and David Gamson were doing most of their studio mixing with computers.

Though (at least in the case of SAW) they were still using digitally controlled analogue mixing desks rather than a fully digital signal chain. Their master tapes have plenty of synth signals containing frequencies much higher than 20kHz.

[dave walsh]

Paul re Rod Stewart [post 27*] BBC4 showed a repeat of "The Joy of [Train] Sets:the Model Railway story" tonight. It's pretty good but the explanation that it's just all about individuals trying to control the world in minature has never really convinvced me! It's a stereotype!

Dave W

[Valvepower]

Crikey, cheap at twice the price…

As already said, that’s being seen as an investment or a rich person’s toy and talking point.

I’ll stick to ferreting out ‘old ball’ stuff at Swapmeets and Audiojumble, mind you, I’ll admit not sitting on my hands - so to speak - and end up buying something for more then I really should at auctions, but this errant activity soon gets sharply curtailed when the wife finds out what I’ve paid

I’ll be interesting to see the circuits though, however, I feel they will be now out of circulation and closely guarded given the sale price of these desks.

Terry

Originally Posted by knobtwiddler

Update: bidding got to £1.9 million, but it didn't meet the reserve!!! The seller is in negotiations behind the scenes apparently... You all know how to contact Mr Jackson!

[Radio Wrangler]

Well, the auction's over and the price it didn't meet is known, though what money it did/will change hands for isn't likely to be made public. So that's the end.

David