Microchip Picstart Plus / Promate II programmers

[ortek_service]

Originally Posted by SiriusHardware

Thanks - of these, the only one which will go into a PIC17C44 is the first one, 3.11.00. That is the final version which was compatible with the 17C44 and the one I am planning to try programming my one PICstart with. The V4.xx ones are only compatible with the units which have the upgrade fitted - I should have said by the way that the final generation of this programmer had the upgrade integrated into the main PCB, so old ones = 17C44, mid-term ones, 17C44 replaced with upgrade PCB, late versions have the circuitry / chip for the upgrade on the main PCB.

If you really would be kind enough to bell out the connections from the flat-pack chip's pins to the 40-DIP outline (no obligation) that would be fantastic, bear in mind that the chip is mounted on the underside of the daughterboard so the pin numbering of the 40 DIP pins seen from that side is swapped over.

One slight complication may be if this PIC18F6720 has a separate bootloader - I saw Microchip provide an example one on the product page for it - that isn't in the firmware file so doesn't get re-written when MPLAB updates the PIC.
Which might mean that a new one, would need this bootloader adding, before it can have any updates from the MPLAB software.
Or at least having an initial firmware version, that contains upgrade / bootloader routines, programming into it via the ICSP interface.

[SiriusHardware]

True, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

[SiriusHardware]

OK, next step I thought I would try is to install an early 32-bit version of MPLAB under Win '98 to see if that will talk to the current firmware in the PICstart Plus's PIC17C44 in order to verify that the PSP is still working before starting off trying to do any firmware mods, otherwise if it fails I'll never know if that was because the unit wasn't working anyway.

I'm off to a bad start with this as I can't even get MPLAB V6.xx (Any version) to run - it installs OK, but when run, shows the splash screen and then an error box pops up 'Can Not Access Database'. When this error is acknowledged the program just shuts down leaving no possibility of looking at the in-IDE settings for the paths, etc, where this hypothetical database is supposed to be.

Anyone else come across this MPLAB problem? Win98 (A real installation on an old PC, not virtual), MPLAB IDE 6.xx (all versions tried).

I have admin rights on the PC - there was a suggestion in another forum to have the installer place MPLAB somewhere other than in 'Program Files' so I tried that but it has not made any difference.

[Ceeejay]

Later versions of the PICStart+ were flash based and didn't need the PUM board so it might be useful to track down the schematic of that version, I doubt it's any more than the original 17C44 version reworked to use the later flash chip so it should be a simple matter to work out the PUM board by cross referencing schematics.

The major difference is the colour of the case, the early 17C44 ones were that typical 'off white' and the later ones were brown:

I have one of each, If I can find them and there are questions I'm happy to help.


@Sirius, all versions of MPLAB up to and including 8.92 will talk to all versions of the PICStart+, the only reason I remember for needing to upgrade the firmware in the programmer was to support newer devices.

[SiriusHardware]

@Sirius, all versions of MPLAB up to and including 8.92 will talk to all versions of the PICStart+, the only reason I remember for needing to upgrade the firmware in the programmer was to support newer devices.

8.92 will 'talk' to the unit I have here only to the extent of determining that its firmware is deemed insufficiently high to be worthy of further interaction. I can't remember the exact threshold, it's somewhere around firmware >= V2.1 which is needed in the PS+ according to MPLAB V8.92.

I'll try it again with 8.92 and this time I'll snapshot the error / status messages.

I'd still be interested to know where MPLAB 6.00 is expecting to find this 'database' that it can't access. If I knew, I could move it to that location manually.

Yes, you would expect that the 'upgrade' would use the same port pins for the same purposes so that a minimum of conversion work would be needed. McMurdo has kindly offered to buzz out the connections between the 'upgrade' processor and the 40-pin header which plugs into the socket vacated by the 17C44 but if you could also spare the time to do that as well it would be reassuring to see an exact match between the two tallies.

I haven't found the wiring of the upgrade PCB preserved anywhere else so it would be good to capture it if possible.

[ortek_service]

Just looking at that 'Farnell datasheet for this 'PUM' module, that SiriusHardware had previous linked to, at: https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1728570.pdf (Also attached)

I see this does actually tell you that it uses a PIC18F6720, as well as showing you a photo of the board (along with over-lapping label on the PIC), that McMurdo had previous attached.
That 'Farnell' (=Microchip) Datasheet, does also actually mention

History:
There are three different versions of the PICSTART Plus:
1. Original PICSTART Plus - Part Number: 10-00157 Rev 1- Rev19
2. Original PICSTART Plus with PUM plugged in - Part Number: 10-00157 Rev 20 - Rev 22
3. New PICSTART Plus design with integrated PUM - Part Number: 10-00379 Rev 1 – and up (Rev 1 is current as of May 05)

Whilst just Googling "PICstart plus schematic FLASH version" to try and find schematic of that integrated-version, Google's AI mentioned:

What to know about the upgrade

DIY option: For those with older units or who need a replacement, it is possible to create a custom upgrade board, as some schematics and layout files have been shared online in electronics forums.

And although you can't always trust Google's 'AI', I have found this (2004/2005 !) thread on another discussion forum, where apparently people have Rev-Eng'd the 'PUM' Module to a Schematic (some errors initially) and made a PCB that works: https://www.edaboard.com/threads/req-schematic-for-flash-based-picstart-plus-programmer.12583/
- But unfortunately it seems you need to be a member + enough 'points' to be able to see the Downloads (that I can't actually see there).

There was also a link to here: https://www.5v.ru/psp.htm
- But I'm not too familiar with the Russian language (that it's in), to work out what is actually there.

Although 've not-quite found the Microchip (later 'Brown / Black IIRC? - So it seems the colour did signify a physical change and not just that Microchip wanted to keep up with Test Equipment manufacturer trends in colour schemes!) PICSTART Plus (Part No. 10-00379) schematic, yet.

[ortek_service]

The 'MPLAB IDE PICSTART Plus User's Guide' (copy attached): https://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/51028f.pdf
does mention that you only need it to support newer PIC's.

Plus that if MPLAB detects firmware > 4.0.5 then you must have a 'PUM' fitted (instead of the original PIC17C44), that this guide covers.

But it doesn't seem to cover the later integrated-PUM PS+ units.

And it also doesn't appear to have any schematics, so if Microchip did provide these than must have been in a separate document.
(Although, IIRC, someone had to request these from Microchip - who did email them for free).

[SiriusHardware]

Ceejay mentioned that he thought all versions of MPLAB including the final version should be able to 'talk' to all versions of PICstart Plus.

The attached is the result of my first choosing and then attempting to enable my PICstart Plus in MPLAB V8.92.

This suggests to me that MLAB 8.92 will only work with a PICstart Plus with at least V2.01 firmware in it, hence my interest in upgrading mine to the final PIC17C44 compatible version V3.11.

It would be a nice bonus if we could reproduce the 'Upgrade PCB' and somehow recover the firmware (including bootloader code, if necessary) needed to drive it.

[Trigon.]

Originally Posted by ortek_service

There was also a link to here: https://www.5v.ru/psp.htm
- But I'm not too familiar with the Russian language (that it's in), to work out what is actually there.

Google translate is your friend:-



Cheers

[ortek_service]

Originally Posted by SiriusHardware

Ceejay mentioned that he thought all versions of MPLAB including the final version should be able to 'talk' to all versions of PICstart Plus.

The attached is the result of my first choosing and then attempting to enable my PICstart Plus in MPLAB V8.92.

This suggests to me that MLAB 8.92 will only work with a PICstart Plus with at least V2.01 firmware in it, hence my interest in upgrading mine to the final PIC17C44 compatible version V3.11.

It would be a nice bonus if we could reproduce the 'Upgrade PCB' and somehow recover the firmware (including bootloader code, if necessary) needed to drive it.

I can see that this can be a bit misleading, when it says you 'may' need to purchase an upgrade kit.
When the original PIC17C44 supported versions upto v3.11
And the upgrade Kit was only for versions 4.0.5.

As the PIC18F6720 doesn't cost much-more than an OTP PIC17C44, then it's worth trying to replicate the (Now discontinued) 'PUM' board, and this would also give better support of later devices.

However, if you do have a UV-Erasable PIC17C44 then it's probably worth trying to upgrade that to v3.11 to start with.
- Maybe trying to read it out to capture all contents, as a backup, just in case things don't quite work as expected (And by looking at the CONFIG 'register' / code-data, you can see if Microchip etc had actually read-protected it for some reason)

Although maybe it's highly-likely someone-else had subsequently swapped the original OTP PIC17C44 to a UV-Erasable one, to allow future updates to it. There wouldn't have been too-much point Microchip supply a UV-Erasable one, if you then needed another programmer (As well as a UV-Eraser) to reprogram it! So programming another new OTP one, does mean you can do it all on just this programmer (Assuming you still have compatible versions between its current firmware & MPLAB)
Although maybe versions were changing a lot, and they didn't want to get stuck with batches of out-of-date OTP ones.
And I have sometime seen old PC's where the Keyboard Controller 80xx uC was a UV-Erasable one, when you'd have expected the code in that to be fairly stable - unlike the OS / BASIC in early home computers.

[ortek_service]

Originally Posted by Trigon.

Google translate is your friend:-

Attachment 320203

Cheers

Thanks. I had put that that website link in an edit, and hadn't had time before edit window closed to translate it
(I don't think Google offered to do it, that it normally does / has now done).

I've now had a look at all their downloads listed on that webpage.
+ Also links listed on that table, to other webpages (also in Russian!) on there.

And I've found that there is a Russian 'PSPFLASH' named Rev-Eng'd clone of the Microchip PICSTART-Plus Upgrade Module (PUM).
With Schematic of this (That should be a copy of original Microchip one).

As well as a couple of (Original Microchip) firmware versions for PIC18F6720 on this 'PUM'.
Also some Microchip PICSTART-Plus (2005-Dec) release notes from Microchip (May still be elsewhere, like Microchip's website), that cover what Firmware_v4.40.01 (pspls44001.hex) with_MPLAB_v7.30 (extra) devices were (now) supported by that.

See attached files from there, with added descriptions in their names for better clarity.
Plus that website's ICSP info webpage, translated to English and printed to PDF.
(May well have been a copy of Microchip's original info).

[ortek_service]

Originally Posted by ortek_service

>>
>>
I've now had a look at all their downloads listed on that webpage.
+ Also links listed on that table, to other webpages (also in Russian!) on there.
>>
>>

I found there was also a 'PICSTARTER+'
- A Clone of the Microchip PICSTART-Plus (Original Beige 'off-white' case version, with PIC17C44).

And for completeness, attached are the remaining files from that Russian webpage, I'd previously linked-to
- For their 'PICSTARTER+' version (which should also cover the original Microchip PICSTART-Plus)

Note: Most of the original PDF's from that website will be in Russian, as were the (Zipped, single-file) PDF's, I've extracted for convenience (as not much-larger, unzipped) - But I did get Google to translate the linked webpages, before printing these to PDF-format.
And I've added descriptions to their filenames, to make it easier to see what they all were (Original dates in ZIP's was 12/02/2005, which their 'PICSTARTER' seems to date-from)


So that should be useful to anyone who needs to repair an original PICSTART-Plus / wants to build a replica.
But I've yet to find a schematic etc. for the Microchip later (Brown/Black cased) PICSTART-Plus with PIC18F6720 Integrated on main board.

[SiriusHardware]

This is all great information, thanks Owen.

Baby steps though, I'll try reading out the present code in the 17C44 - it has a (clearly not Microchip) handwritten label on it which has been partly torn off - probably had the first firmware version ever programmed into it written on it but then was defaced after the firmware was updated again so that the label was not misleading. Unfortunately they succeeded as it is impossible to read whatever was written on it.

I have two programmers here (ICE TECH MM1000E / Hi Lo Systems ALL07A) which are capable of reading / programming the 17C44, I'll read it with both and if what each one reads reads exactly agrees with the other I will consider that to be a valid read.

[ortek_service]

Yes, I did suggest in previous post #30, that it would probably best to try the zero-cost option first, if you already have a UV-Erasable PIC17C44 (after ensuring you have a backup-copy of current contents), in order to try and get it running with later MPLAB versions.

But it does seem we now have all the info required to be able to 'max' it out, to support as much as it was ever capable of doing
- even if that involves using older MPLAB (better in some ways than not too often liked MPLAB-X)
And needing a COM port (surprising they didn't do a USB version, but as PIC's generally all went ICSP by then, PICkit was mostly OK).

[SiriusHardware]

Regarding serial ports, the W10 laptop I have MPLAB 8.92 on doesn't have any but MPLAB appears to be able to communicate with the Promate II and with the PICstart Plus using a USB to serial interface lead, although with the PSP only to find out what firmware it has.

[ortek_service]

For Info, attached is the English translation of the whole www.5v.ru/psp.htm
- Main-webpage for the PICSTARTER+ (Copy of Microchip PICSTART-Plus), which I'd previously only linked-to.

Where there are some useful notes about (in)compatibilities between the different software versions / bugs in some versions - see below:

Important notes for Programmer users:
- Firmware OS version 4.00.05 and 4.10.06 do not work correctly with CodeProtect bits microcontrollers PIC16F83, PIC16F84 and PIC16F84A. As of version 4.20.03, this bug Fixed. Update the firmware module PSPFLASH programmer.
- Starting from 23.02.2004, all Programmers are supplied PSPFLASH module.
(Programmers with PSPFLASH upgrade module are not supported by the old ones versions of MPLAB-IDE v.5.xx.xx).

For programmers with processor PIC17C44 and:
• firmware v3.11.00, v3.10.01, v3.00.40: MPLAB 5.70.40 or higher is required.
• firmware v3.00.00: Requires MPLAB not below 5.62.
(To support the maximum possible list controllers use MPLAB version 6.20 or higher).
For PIC18C658, PIC18C858, PIC18F6x20, PIC18F8x20, PIC10F2XX and rfPIC509Ax Adapter required, see file p-readme.txt.

Also attached is the English translation of the www.5v.ru/pspf.htm
- Main-webpage for PSPFLASH (Copy of Microchip PICSTART-Plus Upgrade Module (PUM)), that I hadn't linked-to or attached a copy of.
But I later-found was linked-to from the www.5v.ru/psp.htm PICSTARTER+ Main webpage - Once I'd chosen for Google to translate that.

[Trigon.]

Regarding the error message -

This device requires firmware version 02.01.00 or higher.
This may require purchasing a PICSTART Plus upgrade kit

I would think 'this device' refers to the PIC configured in the IDE. Was it a later device or an early device like the 16C54?

My notes show I upgraded to 02.01.00 in the year 2000 so an even earlier version is going to be severely limited in the devices supported.

If you haven't already done so it might be worth trying again with a different PIC configured?

Cheers

[SiriusHardware]

Yes, good observation - I would have thought I would already have it configured for 16C55 which was the device I was intending to try programing, and a fairly early device - but maybe I missed that step. I'll try that later on.

[See_Mos]

Now I see the problem. The pinout is completely different to later devices.

A bit off topic! I started with the early devices programming in assembler then the somewhat limited Stamp Basic followed by F.E.D PIC-C then Proton, now Positron Basic. Positron is well supported, easy to use, easy to understand, covers many devices and is cheap to buy. The compiled code is very compact and efficient. It is just a shame that it does not get more exposure.

[SiriusHardware]

Trigon: That was a good shout but I've tried selecting a variety of what I would think are first-gen PICs, for example 16C54 and 12C508, before attempting to enable my early-gen PICstart Plus from MLAB 8.92.

The result is the same as per post #28.