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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 10:15 am   #21
dseymo1
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Default Re: Handle end caps/covers

I very much doubt that any thought was given to future repairs when the cabinet was designed / manufactured; it would have been a case of the easiest and quickest method which still looked OK.
I wouldn't be surprised if, when you lift the covering, the screw threads are caked with adhesive, making for even more fun!
If you can find an identical replacement, it might be best to leave the old handle in place, restoring the mounting plates as best you can, and just fit the new caps. If necessary, I'd have no hesitation in using something like epoxy to hold them on - the chances that a further restoration will be attempted in the future are very small.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 11:05 am   #22
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Default Re: Handle end caps/covers

You said -
To add to the confusion, the (covered) retaining nuts are above the deck, making it even more difficult to disguise the interior vinyl cover access points after removing the mounting plates.
I would cut carefully around the nut and replace, as you have later said, with a domed nut and washer. The glue used to fix the covering will almost certainly be water based and can easily be removed/softened with a rag dipped in hot water.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 7:15 pm   #23
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Default Re: Handle end caps/covers

Hi to everybody,
I have made some progress, and as you requested Nick, have enclosed more pics.
You are quite right dseymo1, when I removed the cover to revel the nut, worse than adhesive, the nut was rusted solid to the screw. It begs the question, why on earth did they not fit a brass nut instead of a mild steel one on the screw? Had they fitted a brass nut, I (or anyone else) would have had a fighting chance removing it.
To make matters, when trying to remove the seized nut, the whole of the screw which is blind so had no slot for a screwdriver, just turned, with no way to grip it.
The only option now, was to drill the head off the screw.
I carefully centre popped the screw head, drilled a small pilot hole in it to ensure It was central, then opened it up in order to remove just the screw head.
Thankfully, this worked and I was able to then remove the screw, and mounting plate. (see pics)
I may as you suggest, restore the mounting plate and possibly the cap, but I am playing with the idea, of fitting small blanking caps over the retaining nuts (I will have to do both mounting plates and caps, in order to visually make them both match) and remove a small patch of matching vinyl from inside of the player where not visible (under the back cover) and glue that to the blanking plugs, in order to try as best as possible, to give the impression, that this was an original feature.
That will of course, should it need any further work on the handle, make life a lot easier for any future repairs.
The first pic. shows the (grubby) inside of the player, before exposing the back cover retaining screw and nut.
I will post more pics at a later date to let all to see how things have progressed.
Just one small point, because this post has been moved, some interested members, may not now see it, as it has now disappeared off the main post lists, and there could well be others, who may experience similar problems, and could well benefit from this thread.
Cheers, Ted.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 7:21 pm   #24
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Default Re: Handle end caps/covers

Hi again to all, more pics.
Please let me know your thoughts, they are all very much welcomed, and gratefully received.
Cheers, Ted.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 8:04 pm   #25
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Default Re: Handle end caps/covers

Don't worry, I found the post easily enough via the "New Posts" button.

This looks like a cheapskate version of the Cheney handle. No way of removing the caps in situ, so no wonder you struggled!

I would try to bash things back to the right shape, then use a new bolt plus domed nut plus washer.

N.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 8:21 pm   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stumted2 View Post
Hi to everybody,
.... It begs the question, why on earth did they not fit a brass nut instead of a mild steel one on the screw? Had they fitted a brass nut, I (or anyone else) would have had a fighting chance removing it.....
It's just the simple laws of keeping down manufacturing costs, then and now, nothing has changed. For example now, plastic parts and panels just clip together and there's no going back, they're often virtually impossible to undo - especially when you don't know what you're actually pulling against under that panel! You have to break a bit of plastic off to get many things apart these days. 'Quality manufacturers' on the other hand such as Quad, Hacker and so on made everything capable of being dismantled, refitted and replaced. But in the case of most 'cheaper' record players and the like the accent was on cheap manufacturing plus 'glitter' to make it sell. They were never intended to still be working 50 years on, let alone repaired. And BTW, it looks like you're doing a great job there. Most things are 're-fixable'.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 9:01 pm   #27
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Hi Nick,
I have managed to re shape the mounting plate and cap to a fairly reasonable level, but still have the problem of rust and pitting. ( that's a good name for a Duo)
I may well as you suggest, fit countersunk screws and domed nuts, but will try to fit the mounting plate nuts in the counter bored holes as per original, and then cover with small patches of matching vinyl, to try to as far as possible, retain its original looks.
I have repaired a small area on the back of the player with a little piece of matching vinyl I carefully removed from an unseen area inside the player, and the repair is almost invisible. (I have an appointment with the optician this coming week.)
More info and pics when I manage to work my way out of this straight jacket.
Any more thoughts on this would be very much welcomed.
Cheers, Ted.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 9:21 pm   #28
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Default Re: Handle end caps/covers

Sorry to hear of your hassles Ted. At least you can console yourself that you hadn't failed to discover the magic trick of how to easily remove the caps - there was no such trick.

There’s an outside chance that Sid Chaplin might be able to supply a suitable N.O.S. handle and end caps.

Sid has now retired, but has been a major supplier to the audio world for nearly 50 years and a regular vendor at the Vintage Radio and Communications Fair held in Birmingham every May. Although retired, Sid is still on hand to offer expert advice and help. His son Russell has integrated ‘Traditional Radio Grilles’ into ‘Retrospecialist’. Sid is happy to deal with specific questions about cloth, rexine and fittings and can be contacted on 01702 473740. His son Russell can be contacted on 01702 473740. (Their website says they're away till Sept 1).

There's nothing shown in the parts list on the website, but handles are shown in one of the images and I’ve seen them on their stall at the NVCF:

http://www.retrospecialist.co.uk/tra...tings-31-c.asp

Hope that helps a bit.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 9:25 pm   #29
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Hi stevhurtz,
Just received your message, it must have posted whilst I was replying to Nicks post.
(typing is not one of my best skills)
Many thanks for your very kind words, and I couldn't agree more. It seems in todays world, its down to a price, not up to a standard.
I so miss the days when a product proudly stating, "Made in England" for the most part, was understood to mean, "of high quality and skilled workmanship."
Or perhaps that's just me only focusing on the good times of yesteryear.
Cheers, Ted.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 9:32 pm   #30
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Default Re: Handle end caps/covers

Personally I would not hide the replacement nuts. I would use screws and domed nuts as suggested, and leave it at that. The result is neat and safe. If you ever want to return it to the original state with vinyl over the nut recesses you can. And for the moment, if you want to take the handles off for any reason it's going to be a lot easier.

Generally when something has been made to look nice but be difficult to repair I will modify it since I have to fix the thing in the future.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 9:44 pm   #31
stumted2
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Hi David,
Many thanks for all this very much welcomed info, I have visited Sid's site on a number of occasions, and will check with him to see what he has in stock, or what he can suggest.
Your and all other members help, is very, very much appreciated, and it's now a daily ritual, that I visit with eager anticipation, this great (and addictive) forum.
Many, many thanks again to all, cheers, Ted.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 10:01 pm   #32
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Hi TonyDuell,
That's a very good point, and a view shared by Nick and other members, and I may well end up doing as suggested.
It's just that I'm a bit of a stickler for trying to retain original looks, (that may be interpreted as "a sad old geezer") and I generally end up being a victim of my own obsession.
Cheers, Ted.
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Old 24th Aug 2015, 9:08 am   #33
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Indeed Ted. For example, gone are the days when I used to re-stuff capacitors. It's not that I 'care less' now, it just that the passage of time has given me a different view. For example, you could find a vintage 30s radio in - apparently - mint condition. But on opening it up you find that inside there is a nicely done cap replacement that (with your knowledge of components) you can see was probably performed in the 60s, there's a bright 60s cap in there. Well that repair is totally valid, it was done by a qualified radio repair man using a contemporary component. And in my book the same applies now; I'm repairing a vintage radio set, why should I hide, in almost ashamed fashion, that repair? I shouldn't, it's totally valid if done properly and professionally. How about this then, in another dimension I get involved with vintage guitar amps, well I've read on forums of people painting caps to look like Mullard mustard caps! It's just ridiculous. Originality is great and to be maintained as far as possible (repeat that please), but there is nothing wrong with a contemporary repair and even a minor mod if it improves on bad design. Well that's my view anyway!
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Old 24th Aug 2015, 11:14 am   #34
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Hi stevehertz,
I fully understand and agree with you, and reading your thoughts on re-stuffing caps brought a smile to my face, as to this day (wherever possible) I still do just that, even though I realise its totally (not to mention time consuming) illogical to do so.
Also, regarding vintage guitar amps, I have been involved in the repair and construction of elec. guitars from 1957 onwards, it's a long story and I won't bore you with the details,
but I am amazed at the price people are prepared to pay nowadays, for "vintage" guitar parts. (supposedly to restore originality to the guitar, and therefore increase it's value.)
These include old (which have been replaced due to worn tracks) pots, selector switches, (worn) worn machine heads, pickups, bumble bee caps, bridge saddles, the list goes on and on, even down to "vintage" screws.
With regard to amps, my first amp was a Mullard 5-10 (built by my dad around 1954ish) followed around 1961, by a Vox AC30, then Simms Watt, Marshall, (could not live with that one) Fender, and lastly my favourite amp, Hi watt DR103.
You may have noticed, that all the above mentioned, are by no coincidence, valve amp.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
Anyway, back to the plan. many thanks for your kind advice, and help, and bearing in mind your thoughts, I will try my best to protect myself from my own obsessiveness,
and will post pics of finished project. (Just hope the player is finished before I am.)
Cheers, Ted.
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Old 24th Aug 2015, 7:52 pm   #35
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While fully respecting your opinion FWIW my own view is that the manufacturers used whatever met their requirements at the lowest tender. If the original supplier's price rose, or supply became difficult, there's little doubt that they would have used a similar equivalent. In some cases, such minor variations are the basis of a specialised collection, of course! As such, I have no compunction over using a replacement (of the correct period style, if possible) myself.
Just my penny'sworth!

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Old 24th Aug 2015, 8:50 pm   #36
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Also, if it had been designed to resist many years of damp storage, and then to be restored to new condition, it would have been too expensive to sell. Chicken and egg.
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Old 24th Aug 2015, 11:08 pm   #37
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Hi. dseymo1 and Bill,
Many thanks for your very much appreciated advice and comments, what seems puzzling to me, is that this is not a cheap roughly thrown together player, it's built to a pretty high standard, (no hardboard used here) with a respectable push pull output amp, built on a good (screened) chassis with vol. treb. and bass controls, not merely treb. cut.
Also the back cover is sheet metal with good heat vents, and of a sensibly folded design, plus the finish is colour matched to the Collaro deck.
Also puzzling, is the fact that there was more work involved in drilling and counter boring the inside of the cab to accept the retaining nut, than to just drill straight through the cab and fit a washer and nut, clearly visible on the inside of the cab.
I fully agree that there must have been cost constraints in order to sell these players within a targeted consumer budget, but I would have thought that this player would be aiming at the higher end of the market.
I must agree though, that at the end of the day, these were just portable players, which in the main, were probably aimed at the younger generation and not designed to last forever.
All your thoughts and views are very much welcomed, cheers,
Ted.
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Old 25th Aug 2015, 8:03 am   #38
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Ted, get over it! When they fitted that handle 50 years ago, the thought that in fifty years time someone may want to replace it was a million miles away. A valve, a resistor, a capacitor, a pot, the deck? yes. Clearly it is a strong handle to have lasted so long. You're probably the first one to attempt to change one! It doesn't follow that because certain parts of the set are 'gold plated' that it all had to be so.
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Old 25th Aug 2015, 4:30 pm   #39
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Hi stevehertz,
Many thanks for your message, and I am trying very hard (honestly) not to lose the plot by going over the top regarding originality.
It stems from repairing, restoring, and construction of Elec. guitars from1957 onwards.
During those years, I have lost count of the number of smashed necks (mostly Gibson) that I have had to construct and splice part necks and headstocks on, or make complete new necks for and glue in, following the same techniques and materials as originally used, including, colour matching and "distressing "to the nth degree, for at the time, many of the top groups and players.
You would also be amazed at the number of pre CBS fenders I have restored and refinished, due in no small part to indiscriminate (and badly) hacked at bodies in order to fit humbuckers and the like, not only using the original type of finishing material (cellulose) but also matching even the original primer under coat colour.
Also, you would be very surprised at the number of pre CBS pickups and Gibson P.A.F.s I have rewound, (I have a Meteor ME 307-01 coil winder) not only using the same wire gauge, (and winding techniques) but also matching as close as humanly possible, the same winding colour of the p/ups.
I could go on forever, with stories that would completely astound you, including the literally hundreds of re-frets I have carried out, but this is not a guitar forum, and I only include this in my post, to try to explain in some small way, my seemingly manic quest for originality.
My player at some time in the past, lost it's back cover, so I called in a favour and had a couple made, (I have another Ekco missing it's back plate) I have attached pics, and I will post more when I have colour matched and sprayed them.
I also have more pics of re-capping the amp, and regluing and clamping the cab if you feel it may be of any help to other forum members.
Just a thought, wouldn't "Get Over It" be a great title for a song, someone should suggest that to The Eagles.
Sorry for this long post both to the Mod (I hope it's acceptable) and your good self.
Again, all views, thoughts and advice, very much welcomed and appreciated.
Cheers, Ted.
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Old 25th Aug 2015, 7:07 pm   #40
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Actually Ted, I have to own up now you mention vintage guitars. I have gone to extreme lengths to 'create' originality on (for one) my R8 '58 Les Paul Sunburst. I've paid loads of money for cottage industry parts that are more accurate than the new Gibson ones fitted and I've dangled shiny nickel plated parts in the vapour of large jars of vinegar to dull and age the nickel. I've also stressed the finish here and there, you know what I mean, nuff said.

But when it comes to vintage radios, it's not like that at all, in general we want them to be like - or near - pristine examples but with the odd contemporary repair. There you go.
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