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Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

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Old 30th May 2020, 4:29 pm   #1
DMcMahon
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Default Grundig TK 200 Initial Look At

Just starting to have a quick look at my latest purchase a Grundig TK 200Uz, which is a model I have not heard of before, very difficult to find detailed information on it.

It is a mid 1960's 2 track, 2 speed, mono, valve R2R with internal power amp and speaker. Case style and size it basically looks the same as the TK 14/17/18/19/23/27 series but with a very different top panel controls layout.

Needs a good clean up, but for its age it looks quite decent condition.

Just two signal connectors, both on the top panel, a 5 pin DIN for the microphone and a 3 pin inline connector for external loudspeaker, so appears to have no line connector.

There is no tape counter, just a tape remaining ruler strip.

Web info indicates that it is UK manufactured (Ireland) for export to USA/Canada. Its original packing box has a German label (dated 1964) inside identifying its as TK 200 USA, hope this does not mean that it is configured with a 60Hz motor pulley.

It is universal in terms of mains voltage/frequency and is set to 220 volts 50Hz, before powering up soon I will change the mains voltage selection links for 240 volts operation.
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Old 30th May 2020, 6:25 pm   #2
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Default Re: Grundig TK 200 Initial Look At

I'm intrigued by this model and the TK400, the four track version. I wonder why they were produced alongside the TK14 series machines. I've never seen any advertising literature for them. I'd be interested in some internal shots when you get to that stage. Do they take 7 inch reels?

Mark.
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Old 30th May 2020, 6:32 pm   #3
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Default Re: Grundig TK 200 Initial Look At

What is the function of the slider control below the head/capstan housing?

Mike
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Old 30th May 2020, 6:40 pm   #4
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Default Re: Grundig TK 200 Initial Look At

It is the RWD/FFD control lever.

David
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Old 30th May 2020, 6:44 pm   #5
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Default Re: Grundig TK 200 Initial Look At

After checking it does take 7" spools, which surprised me.

David
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Old 30th May 2020, 6:53 pm   #6
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Default Re: Grundig TK 200 Initial Look At

Hi, from what I have read the TK200 was never marketed in the UK and only on the continent. The equivalent four track TK400 model was marketed in the UK however.
These machines are mechanically inferior to anything else that Grundig produced both before and afterwards.
One thing to be aware of is that the speed change control must be operated whilst the mechanism is engaged in play mode and not idle as is the case with most (all?) other machines.
I also believe that the single DIN socket requires a line signal to be attenuated to a suitable level as the specifications are designed for a microphone level signal.
The flat fabric drive belts on this model are also problematical and require precise adjustment of the mechanism for the variable fast wind facility to operate correctly. They are also not readily available.

Hope this information is of some use

Andrew
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Old 30th May 2020, 7:30 pm   #7
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: Grundig TK 200 Initial Look At

Mac Hellyer wrote a funny piece called " A Plague on Both" in Tape Recorder some time in 1968 about the consequencies of a transport fault on a TK400...
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Old 30th May 2020, 7:47 pm   #8
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Default Re: Grundig TK 200 Initial Look At

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndiiT View Post
Hi, from what I have read the TK200 was never marketed in the UK and only on the continent. The equivalent four track TK400 model was marketed in the UK however.
These machines are mechanically inferior to anything else that Grundig produced both before and afterwards.
One thing to be aware of is that the speed change control must be operated whilst the mechanism is engaged in play mode and not idle as is the case with most (all?) other machines.
I also believe that the single DIN socket requires a line signal to be attenuated to a suitable level as the specifications are designed for a microphone level signal.
The flat fabric drive belts on this model are also problematical and require precise adjustment of the mechanism for the variable fast wind facility to operate correctly. They are also not readily available.

Hope this information is of some use

Andrew
Hi Andrew, thank you for your inputs, yes thought that microphone input would need attenuating for line signals. Mechanically does not sound promising.

David
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Old 30th May 2020, 7:47 pm   #9
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Default Re: Grundig TK 200 Initial Look At

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Kendall View Post
Mac Hellyer wrote a funny piece called " A Plague on Both" in Tape Recorder some time in 1968 about the consequencies of a transport fault on a TK400...
I will look that up Ted, thank you.

David
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Old 30th May 2020, 9:16 pm   #10
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Default Re: Grundig TK 200 Initial Look At

Changed mains voltage selection links to 240 volts and renewed corroded internal fuses. After safety checks powered up OK. Motor runs, all 3 belts are intact including the 2 fabric belts, my first experience of fabric belts. Magic Eye brightly lit in all modes.

Tape transport, Play, RWD and FFD checked OK without tape loaded. DC main HT supply looks good. In Play mode turning the volume high gives some hum, plus crackle when volume adjusted and touching PB head wiring/waving hand close to induces noise (and Magic Eye responds) so amp sounds like it is live.

In addition to the 3 drive belts there is also a white cord around some pulleys on the underside, have not yet looked to see what that does, maybe speed change ?

When I removed the bottom cover to change mains voltage selection links, saw a spare motor pulley fitted to the cover, this looks smaller diameter than the fitted pulley, so I think the fitted pulley will be the 50Hz one. First time I have seen a spare motor pulley in Grundigs.

Heads look OK, Next to try with tape.
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Old 30th May 2020, 10:06 pm   #11
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Default Re: Grundig TK 200 Initial Look At

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMcMahon View Post
............ a white cord around some pulleys...maybe speed change....
Speed change is obtained by a protrusion on the motor pulley flipping the capstan drive belt between the smaller and larger diameter pulleys on the drive motor.
If you set the mechanism to play with the top cover removed and then pull or push the speed change control with the mechanism running you can easily see how this is achieved.

You are very lucky that both the fabric belts are intact, the acid test of them is whether the machine will completely fast wind a full reel of tape in both directions

Andrew
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Old 31st May 2020, 9:13 am   #12
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Default Re: Grundig TK 200 Initial Look At

Yes Andrew can now see how the speed change works and it works fine on both speeds. The white cord I think is just for reel table stationary locking/braking.

Fitted a 7" tape, Play works fine, FFD & RWD sometimes work fine and other times really struggle, their operation is quite intermittent in terms of good/bad. Difficult to tell what the difference is, sometimes I think the 2 fabric belts are slipping around the reel tables and other times slipping/not driving at the motor pulley. Will try the belt tensioners tension adjustment later.

I do not like the fabric belts, why did Grundig do fabric belts on a few models ?

First will remove the belts and the reel tables and strip the tables to check out clutch components, clean, lubricate as required etc. The left hand belt tensioner appears to be stiff in operation so will check that out once I have Supply table removed.

Question - Is the figure of 8 cross over (somewhat twisted) Supply table belt the correct configuration ? I found an image drawing for the TK 400 that does show the figure of 8 but I also see on eBay a TK 400 where it is not figure of 8 ?

Playback sound is good with plenty of volume and record works well from microphone and Magic Eye responds well.

David
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 12:21 pm   #13
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Default Re: Grundig TK 200 Initial Look At

Replaced 2 core mains cable and continental 2 pin mains plug by 3 core/3pin. Did some cleaning and lubing.

Out of interest tried fitting the Supply table belt without the figure of 8 crossover and as half expected, the Supply reel table then attempts to drive the incorrect direction when RWD selected.

Removed both reel tables and cleaned up, the Supply table belt tensioner was quite gummed up. Refitted all parts.

Now FWD & RWD operation is better and can consistently fast wind end to end, but is not quite right as get some tape flapping/flutter on FFD before the tape enters the Take Up spool as if the spool tension is not quite right.

This flutter effect can now also be seen on Play but does not affect the Playback sound so tape speed through the capstan is good.

To remove the reel tables I had to remove the 2 pulleys on the underside of the unit that the white brake cord goes around. These pulleys are effectively the bottom section of the reel table and have the clutch felt ring on the topside of the pulleys. When refitting I positioned the pulleys height wise on the reel table shafts as close as possible to original positions (but somewhat subjective) and am wondering if the distance is not optimum so that the clutch felt is not making optimum contact.

Have now found that I have the Service manual for TK 400, which for the tape transport is identical to the TK 200, this manual has a detailed set-up for Belt tensions, although on first quick read some of it is not easy to understand, hopefully will make more sense when I go through the procedure. At the start of the procedure it states to adjust the pulley height/gaps to 0.3mm so that is good (in relation to clutch felt above).

I tried fitting several normal round drive belts in place of the flat fabric belts but could not get normal operation (was close at times), maybe with more optimum thickness/length of belts it might be possible to use normal belts. I see there are internet sellers selling normal belt sets for the TK 200/400, I wonder if they have been proven to work reliably ?

I knew I had the TK 400 Service manual but had forgotten about it, it came as part of an excellent large Grundig documentation package, that I purchased off TowerRadio some time ago. Also in the documentation was a June 1965 Grundig Gazette which had its first 2 pages dedicated to the TK 400 (making it sound excellent).
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Old 7th Mar 2022, 9:59 pm   #14
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Default Re: Grundig TK 200 Initial Look At

Thread reopened at OP's request.

Cheers

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Old 7th Mar 2022, 10:52 pm   #15
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Default Re: Grundig TK 200 Initial Look At

This is one of a large number of projects that have fallen by the wayside due to general lack of time and higher priority projects. Now getting ready to have a fresh look.

David
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Old 8th Mar 2022, 12:22 am   #16
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Default Re: Grundig TK 200 Initial Look At

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndiiT View Post
Hi, from what I have read the TK200 was never marketed in the UK and only on the continent.
Andrew
I did not latch onto it originally but now see that there is a "Made in United Kingdom" label, of course this does not mean that it would have been Marketed in the UK.

David
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Old 9th Mar 2022, 1:52 pm   #17
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Default Re: Grundig TK 200 Initial Look At

Rechecked FFD and RWD fast wind performance.

On 5 3/4" it is just about useable, RWD struggles quite a lot when the Supply spool is heavily loaded with tape and FWD also struggles when the Take Up spool is heavily loaded.
Slightly better when tape speed is switched from 7 1/2 ips to 3 3/4 ips due to the fact that on the 3 3/4 ips the flywheel to motor pulley drive belt is somewhat loose.

On 7" both FFD & RWD seriously struggle when appropriate spools are heavily loaded.

Issue seems to be mainly that the flat fabric drive belts from the motor pulley to the spool tables are slipping at the motor pulley, increasing tension on the belts does not help.

Will try again normal drive belts in place of the fabric belts.

David
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Old 9th Mar 2022, 2:48 pm   #18
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Default Re: Grundig TK 200 Initial Look At

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMcMahon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndiiT View Post
Hi, from what I have read the TK200 was never marketed in the UK and only on the continent.
Andrew
I did not latch onto it originally but now see that there is a "Made in United Kingdom" label, of course this does not mean that it would have been Marketed in the UK.

David
That's a rather odd place to put that label - looks almost like an afterthought...

Mike
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Old 9th Mar 2022, 4:13 pm   #19
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Default Re: Grundig TK 200 Initial Look At

Yes agree Mike, I did wonder if the label was an original fitted during manufacture or fitted some time later maybe by an owner, so it may not necessarily reflect country of manufacture.

David
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Old 9th Mar 2022, 10:50 pm   #20
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Default Re: Grundig TK 200 Initial Look At

The U suffix of the model number indicates manufactured in Ireland, probably for Export.

David
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