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17th Apr 2019, 12:18 pm | #1 |
Hexode
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Ashby de la Zouch, Leicestershire, UK.
Posts: 253
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SparkChambers
Anyone ever built one, to show the trajectory of Cosmic rays?
They were used up until the 1960's so it's a vintage instrument/machine. There is a great deal about them on the net from Universities and I have obtained the bible on them, 'Bubble and Spark Chambers.' published in 1967. I am toying with the idea to build but among other odd things required would be a cylinder of near pure helium or argon bought from the British Oxygen Company, although air has been used very inefficiently. PS. 'Bach with sparks' has not been neglected but it's on the bach burner for a bit, with a QCWDRSSTC being built in between.
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17th Apr 2019, 12:33 pm | #2 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oxfordshire, UK.
Posts: 4,311
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Re: SparkChambers
Argon certainly used to be a very great deal cheaper than helium. If there's a diving shop or a welding supplier near you then you might get a better deal on small quantities of gas from them. If you're running close-to-breakdown voltages in air then do watch out for corona production of ozone. It really isn't good for you.
Cheers, GJ
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17th Apr 2019, 1:23 pm | #3 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 3,687
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Re: SparkChambers
You can get reasonably good helium from Card Factory in their balloon kits.
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17th Apr 2019, 2:44 pm | #4 | |
Pentode
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Stockton-on-Tees, County Durham, UK.
Posts: 154
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Re: SparkChambers
Quote:
You can however get argon from Halfords.
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17th Apr 2019, 3:13 pm | #5 |
Pentode
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Coventry, West Midlands, UK.
Posts: 220
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Re: SparkChambers
Most diving shops will likely only supply compressed air and possibly nitrox (compressed air with additional oxygen added). Some of the more specialised shops may have helium for use in producing trimix (oxygen/nitrogen/helium) but in my experience they would only be likely to supply this into a properly certified and tested diving cylinder and would probably also want to see a suitable diving qualification to show that you are qualified to use the gas they are supplying you with.
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17th Apr 2019, 3:56 pm | #6 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 3,687
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Re: SparkChambers
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17th Apr 2019, 4:17 pm | #7 |
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 22,903
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Re: SparkChambers
I thought there were small disposible cylinders of argon for people with hobbyist mig welders. They certainly won't work with a breathable amount of oxygen in them, that would certainly ruin any attempt at welding. Haven't seen them in Halfords but you could try machine mart.
I've bought various supplies and equipment from this firm over several years and found them trustworthy. https://www.r-techwelding.co.uk/weld...t/welding-gas/ You'll need a regulator as well. My smaller Argon cylinder is about £90/year to rent the cylinder itself from BOC, plus about the same for a refill. It's size 'Y' and contains 20 litres at 200 bar. so about 4000 litres at atmospheric pressure. And you definitely need a good regulator. These pressures are dangerous. Helium is much more expensive. Argon is just collected from liquified air and is essentially a recycled resource. Take care, it is heavier than air and is an asphyxiant David
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18th Apr 2019, 6:41 am | #8 |
Hexode
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Ashby de la Zouch, Leicestershire, UK.
Posts: 253
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Re: SparkChambers
Thanks all for suggestions etc. I had forgotten that Argon is used in welding so is
cheap and plentiful. Argon requires a higher working voltage than Helium but that would not be a problem. Just air has been used but that generates Ozone and Nitrous Oxide, but being in a small sealed chamber doesn't present any health problem. As Helium is getting scarce now I believe that most used for balloons does contain some air.
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18th Apr 2019, 7:06 am | #9 |
Heptode
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Preston, Lancashire, UK.
Posts: 632
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Re: SparkChambers
balloon helium
https://www.gas-uk.co.uk/balloon-hel...tres-1464.html Argon https://www.gas-uk.co.uk/argon-pure-5-litre.html A Wilson cloud chamber may be easier to construct. |
18th Apr 2019, 8:54 am | #10 |
Pentode
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Coventry, West Midlands, UK.
Posts: 220
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Re: SparkChambers
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18th Apr 2019, 9:15 am | #11 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oxfordshire, UK.
Posts: 4,311
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Re: SparkChambers
Argon also has the advantage that it's less good at escaping from home-made 'gas tight' chambers than helium. The latter is well-known in the business for being among the most difficult gases to contain.
Cheers, GJ
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18th Apr 2019, 11:14 am | #12 |
Hexode
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Ashby de la Zouch, Leicestershire, UK.
Posts: 253
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Re: SparkChambers
Yes it certainly is, but requires dry ice each time it is used.
That rather put me off it.
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18th Apr 2019, 12:13 pm | #13 |
Nonode
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: North Somerset, UK.
Posts: 2,130
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Re: SparkChambers
Pure liquid helium is used for cooling the superconducting magnets in medical scanners and the like.
Despite thermal insulation it continually boils of, and some of this is captured and sold as "balloon gas" which therefore contains a variable proportion of air. Supplies of helium are limited as it forms very slowly due to natural radioactive decay deep underground, it comes to the surface mixed with natural gas from which it is extracted and sold. Argon by contrast is relatively common, air contains nearly 1% argon. vast quantities of air are liquified to produce liquid oxygen for medical purposes and industry, and liquid nitrogen for cooling. Argon is thus produced. If you want argon, have a look on-line, several suppliers offer it cheaply, for example by including free cylinder hire subject to purchasing one refill a year. |
18th Apr 2019, 1:36 pm | #14 |
Hexode
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Ashby de la Zouch, Leicestershire, UK.
Posts: 253
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Re: SparkChambers
This is what started me off on spark chambers, a small directional detector I am building with rotating detectors in pairs, one of which is lead shielded to ensure no local radiation is lit up on the led's.
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18th Apr 2019, 9:30 pm | #15 | |
Nonode
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Redruth, Cornwall, UK.
Posts: 2,580
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Re: SparkChambers
Quote:
I remember reading that helium is able to permeate through glass such as in valves and impair the vacuum. Is this a real possibility if the valve is exposed to helium? Regards, Symon. |
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18th Apr 2019, 9:43 pm | #16 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oxfordshire, UK.
Posts: 4,311
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Re: SparkChambers
I guess that will come down to the numbers and I don't know those I'm afraid. The fact that the valves run hot won't help (I believe solids tend to become more permeable as their temperature rises). Any micro-cracking around e.g. glass-to-metal seals would be a particular problem. And most people are surprised to see how thin the glass envelope of a valve is, usually the first time they break one.
All that said, I wouldn't expect occasional exposure to small amounts of helium to bother a valve at all. Hot filament ion gauges are made of glass after all https://www.lesker.com/newweb/gauges...m#Hot_Filament. Operating a valve day and night in a high-pressure helium atmosphere might be a very different thing though. But at least we would only have to worry about ion current and eventual gas breakdown. Helium is extremely unreactive and I wouldn't expect it to chemically poison cathodes the way air or moisture or many other gases can. Cheers, GJ
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18th Apr 2019, 9:50 pm | #17 |
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
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Re: SparkChambers
After some recent reports, I thought any stray helium made a bee line for the nearest iPhone or iWatch in order to percolate in and disable it!
David
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18th Apr 2019, 10:13 pm | #18 |
Heptode
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 512
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Re: SparkChambers
Know all alert "I believe solids tend to become more permeable", maybe they do, but glass isn't a solid, it's a super cooled liquid............ I'll get my coat.
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19th Apr 2019, 9:44 am | #19 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK
Posts: 6,130
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Re: SparkChambers
... which may mean it's even more permeable!
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19th Apr 2019, 9:59 am | #20 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oxfordshire, UK.
Posts: 4,311
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Re: SparkChambers
True. I should have said 'condensed phase materials'. Fact is, though, that gases diffuse into one another faster at higher temperatures too. So really I should just have said 'stuff' .
Cheers, GJ
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