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-   -   Philips 22CS1002/05t TV (https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=162296)

Eidolon 13th Apr 2020 10:11 am

Re: Philips 22CS1002/05t TV
 
There's a few pal scart to rf modulators about but it's trying to find a good one.
It's the rgb to pal conversion that's the problem. Not sure what there is available

hamid_1 13th Apr 2020 11:10 am

Re: Philips 22CS1002/05t TV
 
Many DVD recorders had RGB SCART input and composite video output on separate phono sockets. You could use one as a converter. Worth a try if you have one to hand The Panasonic DMR-ES20D DVD recorder even has a built-in modulator, making it a one-box solution to convert RGB SCART to RF, but it's a bit of a clumsy way of doing it.

The Commodore Amiga A520 modulator also converted the RGB signals from the Amiga 500 computer into composite video and RF. Used ones are available. It contained the Motorola MC1377P RGB to PAL/NTSC encoder chip, which was used in other home computers of the era like the Sinclair QL. The MC1377 chip is still available, though if you're thinking of building your own converter it will require some additional components.

VHS machines do not process RGB signals. You won't be able to use one to convert RGB SCART to composite.

Clydeuk 13th Apr 2020 3:55 pm

Re: Philips 22CS1002/05t TV
 
There was also the modulator/convertor sold for the Amstrad CPC464 computer which I think had it's own power supply built in, though most of the computers sold with either a green or colour monitor, so I expect they would be quite rare now. Again this used the MC1377 chip. I was going to suggest constructing something; there are some circuits available online. But I don't know if the OP would want to try this route, or whether all required components are available (the circuit I looked at required a delay line).

There may be newer IC's that can do the same job. Unfortunately this conversion is not something most people require, so commercial products may not be available.

jhalphen 13th Apr 2020 4:09 pm

Re: Philips 22CS1002/05t TV
 
Hi to all,

@Eidolon : I built an NTSC 3.58/USA Modulator many years ago, it's not easy (coils, etc.) a Grid-Dip meter is really handy to build them + you need to master RF circuit board grounding techniques.

I searched for you E-Bay UK/France/Germany using search words such as "PAL encoder", "RGB to PAL coder", etc. didn't find much interesting stuff, some Pro units, bulky and expensive plus of course a bunch of ICs including the ubiquitous MC1377 & more modern chips.

Found though one cheap consumer coder sold by a French guy :
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/CODEUR-PAL-T...-/350258737834

I am quite astonished at the lack of choice, consumer computers & games outputting RGB which needed to connect to a television sets aerial input were galore in the 80s/90s, where did all this stuff go...

Best Regards
jhalphen
Paris/France

Kyle__B 13th Apr 2020 6:39 pm

Re: Philips 22CS1002/05t TV
 
I think it went away in the late 90s when everyone realised their cheap portables had scart sockets now. Thankfully.

I'd suggest Amiga A520 modulator because those take RGB and give both RF and colour composite, but the word Amiga approximately triples the worth of anything you put it on these days.

Eidolon 14th Apr 2020 11:25 am

Re: Philips 22CS1002/05t TV
 
Ah, the Amiga modulator is a good idea. I have one for my a500 but can't really wreck that one. There is a retro gaming shop not farqfrom me which would probably do one at a reasonable price. I'd essentially need to convert it to rgb scart in, by a bit of wiring modification i guess. Could work out well. However the audio would be an issue. I don't get any sound either when the Next is connected to my tv, and the Amiga modulator might not deal with that problem? The Next outputs it's rgb via a vga connection, which I'm assuming is unconventional? I'd need a cable that would be compatible rgb vga lead the one end, and connected to the relevant ports for the a500 modulator at the other.

My vhs in the case of the sitting room also has a Panasonic vhs/dvd recorder plugged into it. I did try the scart on that too, but had no luck from that.

Kyle__B 15th Apr 2020 10:58 pm

Re: Philips 22CS1002/05t TV
 
Chopping up your A520 wouldn't be necessary, although doing so is hardly a sin because they're horrible things to see sticking out the back of a 500, which is big enough as it is. I got a 1200 and never looked back.

It'd be easy enough to make a cable that'd work. DB23 connectors are hard to get hold of so most people just cut down a DB25. Amiga video socket has 5v and 12v, of which I'm not sure which the 520 needs, but you can get both voltages from PSUs with 5.25" drive molex connectors (yes that exists). If you're lucky it might be a 5V device in which case any phone charger made in past five or ten years will work. Sound is of course just a matter of plugging it in to the sound hole.

Eidolon 16th Apr 2020 10:35 am

Re: Philips 22CS1002/05t TV
 
I was just coming here to ask about powering the modulator. Whats the best way to test for whT power it needs? There's still the issue of how to get the power into it. Obviously it gets it through the port connector by default.
I need to know which pins accept the rgb in, on the modulator, and out on the Next's vga connector. After that it should just be a case of getting an old scart lead and changing the ends?

Regarding the modulator on the Amiga itself, someone told me once thT it was possible to use the a500+ that i have without it, as the amiga itself apparently outputs rgb. A custom cable with a scart on ghe other end could get around the need to use the modulator at all. That would be a big advantage to me simply because the modulator causes so much inconvenience sticking out the back of the machine in it's manner. Causes real space issues.

My one concern here though is that my vhs/dvd recorder has a scart input that accepts rgb in, and i still don't get any picture or sound via that. Unless it accepts rgb in but doesn't convert it for output. It only does digital out over the rf, so it outputs via a scart into an older vhs machine that converts the singal to rf to send to the tv.

jhalphen 16th Apr 2020 10:52 am

Re: Philips 22CS1002/05t TV
 
@Eidolon :

A Modulator does NOT transform a signal. It takes what is fed in and puts it on a RF carrier as it is.

RGB to composite video is done by an Encoder, PAL, SECAM or NTSC.

These are totally separate and different operations, NO VHS machine, DVD recorder or whatnot will ever convert RGB to composite RF.

Regards
jhalphen

Kyle__B 16th Apr 2020 12:16 pm

Re: Philips 22CS1002/05t TV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eidolon (Post 1235462)
I was just coming here to ask about powering the modulator. Whats the best way to test for whT power it needs? There's still the issue of how to get the power into it. Obviously it gets it through the port connector by default.

Making up a cable would solve this for you, as I said power bricks that do both 5 and 12v are available and we'll rob it from there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eidolon (Post 1235462)
I need to know which pins accept the rgb in, on the modulator, and out on the Next's vga connector. After that it should just be a case of getting an old scart lead and changing the ends?

Seems like you're greener than I expected, you need to google for pinouts. "Amiga video pinout" and "vga pinout". Although if the spectrum next works with a scart cable then it's going to have a composite sync pin on there too. Best ask someone who owns one what the pinout of that is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eidolon (Post 1235462)
Regarding the modulator on the Amiga itself, someone told me once thT it was possible to use the a500+ that i have without it, as the amiga itself apparently outputs rgb. A custom cable with a scart on ghe other end could get around the need to use the modulator at all. That would be a big advantage to me simply because the modulator causes so much inconvenience sticking out the back of the machine in it's manner. Causes real space issues.

Yes of course you can, and in fact you should have done a long time ago. The Amiga video socket is RGB like you get on a SCART connector. Commodore wanted you to use one of their very nice proper computer monitors, and so didn't include a modulator inside the computer. The A520 being such a horrible inconvenience and waste of space is intentional, as was it originally being a 75 optional extra. The idea being that people would recognize it was expensive and rubbish and then 275 on a real monitor wouldn't seem so bad.

As a long time Amiga user I don't understand how people ever used the A520, it's so blurry it's almost impossible to read what the programs say. As it is an Amiga RGB SCART cable is about twelve euros online, plus postage.

Eidolon 16th Apr 2020 5:50 pm

Re: Philips 22CS1002/05t TV
 
The problem regarding the rgb out from thr Next is that the Next does a lot of things in unusual ways sometimes. I take nothing as standard on it until I've checked through everything in careful detail. The manual isn't overly helpful because it's extremely hard to find things in it, it doesn't have an index and chapters and pages often aren't headed in wording that makes it unclear what it's for. It's pretty much written for those who already into some degree of coding.

If i can wrangle it's rgb out via the Amiga modulator to an rf out to the tv i will be happy. The Next is primarily designed to run on computer monitors via various vga options, but also supports a somewhat compromised hdmi out option, and a form of the original machines SD tv output but only via rgb from a vga socket, which requires a specialist cable to get it to a scart. Unlike previous models in the range there's no rf or composite out, which has proven to be a big headache for me.

Kyle__B 16th Apr 2020 6:38 pm

Re: Philips 22CS1002/05t TV
 
Scart via VGA is unusual but not totally unheard of and the cable is only 13 quid so there's probably no sync mixer in there.

I would just send an email to the makers asking what the pinout is in SCART mode, failing that buy the cable and buzz it out with a multimeter.

If you can find that bit out yourself I'll draw you a wiring diagram to connect it to an a520 with power :)

Eidolon 16th Apr 2020 10:16 pm

Re: Philips 22CS1002/05t TV
 
I have the vga (and minijack for audio) cable, which is useful for the other tv's in thr house. I'd be looking to repurpose an old scart lead for this if possible.

I did speak to the specialist cable maker, but he had no idea about it and the context I'd need a different cable for.

Kyle__B 17th Apr 2020 11:40 am

Re: Philips 22CS1002/05t TV
 
There's no possible way a cable maker doesn't know the pinout of a cable he makes.

McMurdo 17th Apr 2020 12:00 pm

Re: Philips 22CS1002/05t TV
 
have you tried what it says in the manual regarding the power-up output display resolutions, eg pal/ntsc, line doubler defeat, RGB analogue selection etc

Eidolon 17th Apr 2020 2:05 pm

Re: Philips 22CS1002/05t TV
 
There's nothing of a viable output format. Not unless there's a way to convert a suitable vga signal to Pal composite as an alternative way of doing it.

jhalphen 17th Apr 2020 3:20 pm

Re: Philips 22CS1002/05t TV
 
@Eidolon,

This gadget converts VGA to PAL or NTSC composite :

https://www.amazon.fr/LEDMOMO-1080P-...ronics&sr=1-96

Found it on Amazon.fr, just lookup the product on Amazon UK

Of course you will need to retrieve the RGB + Sync from whatever connector/pin-out your computer uses & connect to the standard VGA pins which will input the converter.

No ties to Amazon nor seller

Regards
jhalphen

Kyle__B 17th Apr 2020 4:20 pm

Re: Philips 22CS1002/05t TV
 
What documentation for the spectrum next is publicly available? There's not much on the website at all really.

Eidolon 14th May 2020 10:54 am

Re: Philips 22CS1002/05t TV
 
There isn't much unfortunately along these lines. The instruction book contained nothing relating to this, and is written with programmers in mind, for those who aren't already 'jogging', in terms of experience and knowledge along those lines, it's quite confusing and hard to follow, especially as there's no index to help find things. I haven;t updated to the latest version of the operating system that supports other machines such as the Atari 2600 and BBC Micro through Core updating, as it's all a tad confusing for newbies along these lines. plus the Next is still not easily used by me for external reasons at this point. I may as well as wait until I'm in a position to use it a lot before messing about with it in that way. I've also found that while attempting to load from cassette, that both of my computer datacorders haven;t been fixed properly and are running too slow, which doesn't help.

Going back to the TV itself for a minute, I've been told that I have to go back to work at the start of next month, and as such I'm beginning to wonder if we'll be in a situation soon when we might be allowed to travel. As such I cold hopefully pick up that replacement tube as kindly offered by WelshAnorak.
Assuming that the not-so-good technician did short the coils, which I'm pretty sure he did, is it something easy enough to see by eye and undo? Just want to try and ensure all possible issues are dealt with if possible at the time.

Clydeuk 14th May 2020 12:26 pm

Re: Philips 22CS1002/05t TV
 
The quick and dirty way to short the coils was to just solder a jumper wire on the print side of the board leaving the coil in place, the whole thing being a bodge to squeeze the last bit of life out of the tube. You would be able to see this easily.

Obviously it is possible an engineer removed the coils and replaced with a wire link, though this is much more work for something that would probably not have been a paid job (beer money at most).

If you post clear photos of the tube base PCB both sides we should be able to see if the coils are there and if they've been shorted out. I think there were 2 on the main PCB as well. You should be able to trace the connections from the heaters back to the Line Output Transformer, the coils will be along this path. They are only small things, I think they were wound on a small ferrite former.

Funny thing is I don't remember ever doing this bodge on 30AX models, but that was 25 or more years ago and at the time 30AX tubes were easy to get hold of and had a good life.


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