Radiophile Auction - The future
 

I have copied below Chas's statement from the last auction catalogue:

Some Serious Words About Auctions

Do please devote a few minutes to reading this frank statement of facts by Chas. E. Miller which affects both the Radiophile Magazine and its readers
First, the good news. The two auctions at Cowbit this year were models of how readers of the Radiophile can organise events on our behalf and thereby relieve Jo and myself a great deal of work, worry and physical strain which otherwise inevitably takes its toll in various ways, the most notable effect of which as far as the readers are concerned is the ever-lengthening intervals between the publishing of magazine issues. One small touch at the end of the September 10th event pleased us immensely - one of the organisers offered to return the key and take the payment for the hire of the hall to the agent on our behalf, which may not sound much to some but means a lot to two people who need to relax after a long day. We thank again you good folk who made our 250 mile round trip to Cowbit worthwhile.

Unfortunately, the July 23rd Auction at Gnosall demonstrated all too clearly a repetition of what has gone wrong in the past and raised the same fears that caused me to pull the plug on auctions two years ago. Once upon a time as many as a dozen volunteer helpers would turn up early on the Saturday before the sale, when the setting-up work is done, but sadly those days are long in the past and on the 22nd July I waited alone at the hall for two hours until, thank heavens, a few "old faithfulls" - Alan and Mike, Brian and Susan, and Philip turned up. Shortly afterwards my son brought our biggest trailer, loaded with a huge number of sale items; but this was in fact only half the total to be offered and once they had been off-loaded it was then necessary for him to go to our storage site to fetch the remainder. He could not manage this unaided, but neither could anyone be spared from the hall to help him, so he was forced to search out and bribe a local teenager who, to give him credit, did work well. Once again, our new system of separate-vendor lot numbering showed its superiority over the old style strictly consecutive numbering by making it possible to arrange the sale items in a fraction of the time that used to be taken by this task, and I was home not long after six p.m. after a mere ten-hour working day.

The first warning of further problems ahead came when Nick Allsop asked for volunteers to assist with the portering, because it was obviously impossible for Brian to manage on his own. The response was a deafening silence and when somebody who had helped in the past was approached the answer was a blunt refusal. Then Neil stepped forward and saved the day for us. Thank goodness, Dawn had already volunteered to do the accounts, which she handled with her customary expertise and celerity. By five o'clock all the lots had been sold and paid for and the hall was emptying fast - so fast that before we knew it Philip and I were appalled to find that we had been left on our own with all the tables and chairs to be cleared away and the leftover lots, the video equipment and the public address gear to be loaded into the big trailer. It is difficult to put into words the utter despair that gripped us. With half a dozen volunteer helpers all that was necessary could have been achieved in less than half an hour, but for us it was an impossibility. Philip did his best; he shifted the tables and chairs sufficiently to be able to sweep the floor effectively, while I assembled the lighter parts of the audio and camera kit as near to the doors as I could manage. Neither of us had a mobile telephone so we could not ask for assistance, and it wasn't until seven o'clock that Jo began to wonder why I hadn't returned home and came looking for me. She had no mobile telephone either so she had to go back to our house to get in touch with my son. He, as usual, was engaged in milking a large herd of cows and couldn't help until that job was finished. In the end it was a quarter past nine when I locked the front door of the hall, after a near fourteen hour working day. Can you blame me if the thought uppermost in my mind was "never again", closely followed by it would have been nice had anyone bothered to ask if Philip and I needed help.

At this point readers will probably be wishing to ask a couple of questions. First, what went wrong with the arrangement whereby Rob Rusbridge acted as auction manager? I blame myself to a large extent for the failure of this venture because presumably I could not have made it sufficiently clear to him that I was seeking someone to take over and to continue employing the same methodology that Jo and I had developed successfully over the last twenty five years or so. Rob, with the best intentions in the world, tried to fix something that wasn't broken and sadly the results were unsatisfactory for all concerned. This, exacerbated by the trauma he must have suffered from some lunatic behaviour on the part of one of our vendors (see p60, issue 138/9) caused him to pull out just before the April event at Gnosall. He has since told Graham Newman that he has switched directions and is now engaged on electronic research work; we wish him well. The second question must be, if the auctions cause us so much grief, why persist with them? Well, apart from the fact that we feel it our duty to assist those unfortunate readers or dependants of readers who suddenly find themselves having to dispose of a houseful of vintage radio equipment, the magazine needs and relies upon the extra income generated by the auctions. Although we have increased its size and introduced high quality colour throughout, the subscription has not been increased for many years. This is also despite the fact that since the Royal Mail was privatised postage rates have risen year by year, and the situation has been exacerbated by this Government's imposition of V.A.T. on sending out magazines.

So why not raise the subscription rate? Unfortunately it takes a very long time for an increase to add substantially to a magazines income and there is always the threat of the Law of Diminishing Returns coming into effect. It is also pertinent to mention that our takeover of Radio Bygones came at a price, i.e. the honouring of the previously paid subscriptions, which to date has cost us a rather large four-figure sum.

So this is the situation: although we sorely need the extra income that the auctions provide, the workload which those at Gnosall impose upon us is so heavy as to be unsustainable unless extra and substantial voluntary assistance can be assured: those good people already mentioned cannot be expected to work longer and more exhausting hours than they already do (at this point I must tell you that Brian and Susan do an enormous amount of work behind the scenes in meeting vendors and appraising lots) and I dread any repetition of what happened in July. The fact that I already know that one of our key helpers will not be available for setting up on 7th October does nothing to relieve any forebodings. What's to be done? One suggestion I have received is to recruit auction stewards who would receive various concessions in return, in sufficient numbers to ensure that half a dozen at least would be available at any one time. This, I am afraid, is much more easily said than done. Many readers will remember the Sambrook Summer Specials which for years were extremely popular but eventually faltered and, despite many appeals, had to be abandoned because of a lack of volunteers to help set them up. My personal preference would be a revival of The Friends of The Radiophile, a group of dedicated readers which, by handling all the many small details of setting up events and auctions enabled me to concentrate on producing the magazine. Surely it's not impossible that there are amongst our readers sufficient public-spirited people willing to take on the job? I live in hope.

At this point I must apologise for the delay in publishing the next issue of The Radiophile (incorporating Radio Bygones). Graham Harold\'s sudden retirement nearly three years ago was a body blow. Apart from handling telephone calls and answering all the correspondence, Graham Harold also edited the Readers\' Letters pages, handled Bake-O-Bryte orders, researched service sheet queries, took card payments, printed and sent out the auction catalogues and did many other chores. I wrote shortly after he had left that it simply wasn't going to be possible for one person - me - to do all the jobs just mentioned and produce the magazine on time, and this has proved to be all too true. Graham Newman has done wonders for us - we may not have been able to survive without him - but even he cannot do everything and unless or until more assistance is forthcoming it is inevitable that it will take longer and longer to attend to everything. For instance, Jo and I have already spent a working week on preparing this catalogue and report, a week in which we would have been far more appropriately occupied in producing a magazine; and since our work load must be reduced - holidays are what other people have - something will have to go. I don't want to do it, but unless some sort of voluntary support group can be organised, I'm afraid that the Radiophile auctions will have to be abandoned after the end of this year. What happens at this next auction on 8th October and the forthcoming one on 10th December ought to provide a pointer as to what their future will be. I sincerely hope it may prove to be positive.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

I was not aware of the difficulties Chas was having with lack helpers at the auctions.
Being out of the country for 4 months over the UK winter and cruising during the summer limits which auctions I can attend.
However I wanted to attend the October auction and offered to help out on the Saturday setting the lots up and on the Sunday portering and packing up at the close. Nothing too arduous or difficult.
It involved a night out in a local B&B and a bit of petrol getting there and back, not too expensive, a bit of physical effort, and having a real good time with others over the weekend.
Inevitably money was spent buying yet more "essential" items I just could not refuse, that's the way of auctions.
So if you have the time to spare and want a good weekend with like minded souls, offer to help, your efforts will be appreciated.
Sam.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

Does anyone know whether the Gnosall auction scheduled for 10 December is proceeding? If it is, as before, is it possible for someone in receipt of the auction catalogue to post it on here please? Very many thanks.
Regards,
Richard

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

Auction catalogues for Gnosall 10th December should be in the post this week, and pdf copies emailed out as soon as I get copy.

They are not public domain documents and available to subscribers only before the day of the auction - as such they should not be posted here.

Chas was willing to turn a blind eye to the last occasion a catalogue was posted in view of the problems getting it out on time, but this was not a precedent and copies should not be posted online.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

Crossed with Graham

My understanding is that the auction catalogue is by subscription it was posted here last time as it was sent out so late.

Cheers Mike T

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

Thanks Graham. Hope to make it along this time.
Regards,
Richard

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

Been like that for at least the last 8 yrs i have been attending the auctions. I myself have helped clean up at the end of the auctions for Chas because the rest of them just scarper as quick as they can.

I thought forum readers might enjoy these two drawings from a Radiophile auction this year. Anyone recognise the sitters?
Regards,
Richard

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

How many other auctions operating on a commercial basis (i.e. charging a commission) expect bidders to stay behind afterwards and help the auction organiser clear up? If people are willing to help, that's fine, but there should be no implied criticism of those who wish to leave after paying for their goods, surely?

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

Although I agree with Phil in principle I feel this is a little more than just a commercial venture.

Vintage radio is a poor man when it comes to resource and depends heavily upon volunteers.

It's the same in the BVWS no one is picking up a salary and most radio events whoever is running them would disappear without the band of volunteers.

Radiophile is slightly different as its a commercial venture as Phil stated, but I don't think anyone is of the opinion that this is a nice little earner it's more of a service and I don't suspect there will be too many takers to continue the Radiophile auctions once Chas has finally had enough.

It's our hobby we all have to do at least a little bit. :thumbsup:

Cheers

Mike T

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

How is it the BVWS auctions don't seem to have these problems? Maybe Chas could get in touch and ask for some top tips?

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

I don't think Chas is too chummy with the BVWS, I am pretty certain that there has been a lack of co-operation in the past concerning meet dates etc (Note I am not saying who failed to co-operate with who because I simply don't know)

I think the BVWS are the Burpers of his Monty escapades.

I think it goes way back to the very begining of the BVWS certainly ISTR call Chas attending all the Meets in the 1980's that I attended, but at some point there seems to have been a parting of the waves.

Even the BVWS relies on a pretty small group of helpers you don't often see new faces.

Cheers

Mike T

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

I've actually had quite a few chats with Chas regarding auctions etc., and the problem is simply one of profitability. By the time each auction is finished, there is so little left after expenses that to employ anyone to help would mean a serious loss. Most commercial auctions charge a buyer's premium as well as seller's charges, and auctions for antiques etc. do tend to get better prices in general, so making more profit for the auction house.

What little profit is made (mainly from auction catalogue subscriptions) helps support the magazine publishing as costs there are rising dramatically. With the added burden of Radio Bygones (which Chas took over rather than let it die), every last penny helps!

I don't think there are any issues with the BVWS - certainly Chas has never said anything to me, and I know that he does try to avoid any BVWS events dates that he is aware of. But as far as I know BVWS members help pack up their events anyway.

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If you tot up the takings at Chas's auctions each time you will see that he is never going to make big bucks only biggish headaches at times.

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Of course its not just Chas, Joe and their son are heavily involved with the auctions.

I can sympathise with all concerned regarding the lack of input from enthusiasts, nobody volunteers for committees anymore, folk don't want to spend the time getting involved.

Profitability in dying trades has been a problem for years as we all know, and we are a rather select audience with no obvious profit streams.
I admire Chas taking on another magazine rather than let it fall but the costs of servicing existing paid subscriptions is onerous and without profit. It is hard enough getting the copy for the Radiophile without too much padding, now he has to do it twice over. If that magazine is wanted by its subscribers then it should be run as a profit centre that they fund, they must be made to realise that and not be a millstone on the Radiophile funds.
I agree with Phil, unpaid help is the hardest to find hence they need to feel wanted. It is notable that a number of buyers attend these auctions on a purely commercial basis, others attend for the atmosphere. Some even attend as enthusiastic collectors. But no one attends for free simply to run the auction.
I enjoyed helping at one of the recent auctions and will do it again when I can, but it would of been nice if Chas had made a point of thanking the few that stayed and packed up rather than letting us drift away.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

There are some very valid points made, but I suspect most people don't understand the strain the auctions and publishing business actually put on Chas (and Jo for that matter). Chas has been under a huge amount of pressure for some years now, and has (in my humble opinion) done well to keep the auctions going. He did get some help a while ago from someone who more or less took over the running of the auctions, but there were issues when major changes were made without consultation causing quite a few complaints and the eventual parting of the ways - since then he has had to do the preparation work himself (quite a considerable task on it's own, never mind that he is working on the magazine at the same time) as well as struggling with a few health issues.

I know that Chas is very grateful for any help offered - even if he doesn't always seem to show it (!), but it isn't always available and the strain is certainly telling on him.

Unfortunately living so far away, and with health issues of my own, I can't help out at all with the auctions, and I suspect that they will cease in the not too distant future unless something dramatic happens. It's a shame, but realistically the magazine comes first - though the loss of income from the auctions (small though it is) will almost certainly mean a price increase on magazine subscriptions as even without the Radio Bygones takeover the profit was ridiculously small.

I have tried to help with the setting up of the website, and organising PDF copies of the magazine (which obviously saves some printing and postage costs), but these are all small things which make very little overall difference. Also, Chas lost his only helper on the magazine side a few years ago, so the work there has increased considerably, adding to the pressure. When you add in the number of telephone calls he gets as soon as the magazine is delayed (although he doesn't quote dates, a lot of people seem to 'know' when it's due and call to check why it hasn't arrived), the nett result tends to be more delays and ergo more telephone calls!

I wish I knew the answer....

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

I do fear that a price increase combined with the continued non delivery of the current overdue issue may push the magazine over the edge, losing both the auction and the magazine.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

And that pretty much makes my point. Calling it an "overdue issue" implies a fixed publishing date. Rightly or wrongly the subscriptions are per number of issues, and publication dates will vary. Although Chas has always tried to get 3 or 4 issues out per year, he has never charged subscriptions based on publishing on fixed dates. While the intention has always been to get issue 141 out this Autumn, no date has ever been given.

What happens, though, is that point does't really seem to get across well enough to subscribers (probably Chas's fault for not emphasising it enough), and people complain of overdue issues as if they they are dealing with a large company issuing magazines on fixed dates.

That would all be very well if such comments were limited to forums, emails etc., but too many telephone and thus exacerbate the problem as they divert Chas from the actual editing and production work necessary to publish the magazine.

As far as price increases go - that isn't on the cards at present (as far as I am aware - I'm only a casual helper), but I can see it happening if things don't change.

If people then think the magazine is too expensive for them, then so be it - personally I think a smaller print run sold at a profit is preferable to a larger one sold at a nett loss, but ultimately it will be up to Chas to decide.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

But I haven't telephoned.
Point taken, hope that my cataracts let me read the next issue, if I should live that long.

Sorry to be blunt, but it's no way to run a business, if indeed it is.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

Sorry if I implied you had - that wasn't my intention. Just a point that telephone calls do add to the delay.

And as for running a business - I agree. The problem is that Chas looks at it much more like a club, or perhaps as a service to like-minded people. If it was a business, then frankly I don't think it's viable, at least unless Chas gets enough help with the day-to-day running of it to concentrate on increasing profitability. (Though in fairness, I'm not sure Chas really wants a conventional business).

Whilst figure are obviously confidential, I do know the printing and postage costs are very close to the income received - far closer than any conventional business would accept.

Frankly, Chas could certainly earn a lot more if he closed the magazine down and did something else. He won't do that, of course, but I do think he needs a bit of encouragement from time to time, rather than the (possibly justified) criticisms that he seems to be getting of late. (And that isn't a dig at any particular person!)

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

I don't know Chas (although I have chatted on the phone, buying something not complaining) but reading this and his notes I do worry about his health. I've never been able to attend an auction (they're just to far although they are further north than the BVWS ones) but it sounds like they're more bother than they are worth so maybe it's time to stop them.

I enjoy the Magazine but I'm not sure £25 for 3 issues is value for money and when you're paying for a service you expect some predictability but a week or 2 leeway would be acceptable and is part of the charm.

My subscription ends at 141. I'm undecided but will probably go for the cheaper PDF option, presumably this is less hassle and more profit.

So I'd be happy to see the auctions sacrificed for the magazine.

John

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

The PDF has a profit margin much closer to what I personally would deem as sensible, but of course many people still want the print issues. With electronics and computer magazines in the newsagents costing £6, £7 or more these days (and subsidised by lots of adverts), I still think the print magazine price is actually pretty good.

With respect to the service aspect, again I would reiterate that the magazine has never been sold as having fixed publication dates - the subscription is sold as number of issues, so every subscriber gets what they paid for. If you want a regular magazine delivery, then The Radiophile is simply not suitable for you.

With respect to the auctions, it would be a shame to see them go, but unless things change I suspect that this will eventually happen. At that time of course, the (small) income they bring in will also cease, and I can't see a realistic prospect of Chas being able to maintain the current price thereafter (though I'm sure he would try!)

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

Hi Graham. I think there is more awareness re the unique nature of The Radiophile since you persuaded Chas to have an internet presence and that's all to the good. I've commented several times over the years that delays in publication are an aspect of the magazine that long term subscribers have always tolerated and accepted with good humour particularly as the owner always took great trouble to explain the various technical, health, vehicle and domestic problems that often seemed to conspire against him! Disaster was s almost a given in a way but as you say, it's not like the Radio Times8-\

I'm sorry I can't help with any of the difficulties outlined. Despite being based in the North my perapatetic life style militates against this and even attending a lot of events but I thank you for taking the time to explain things. I will be even more grateful to get the next issue now:D

Best Wishes for the season to you and all the Radiophile "elves" :thumbsup:.

Dave

"Broadcasting" from Ramsbottom Library!

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

What was the last magazine number 140? As I am confused I have 2 address labels both saying mine ends with different numbers.

I have taken RadioPhile since day 1 when it was RadioGram? if it takes longer to arrive then other mags so be it, the wait is worth it.

Chas has had a few health issues over the years I am aware, so it all needs to be taken into consideration in fairness.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

Issue 140 is the last issue - 141 is imminent, the address labels went to Chas today.

If you have any subscription issues or queries, I can normally answer / resolve them pretty quickly - just send me an email (through the website preferably, or by PM here. Just be sure to give me enough details to find you!

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

Thank you Graham, will do.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

i know Philip (see post #1) quite well. He confirmed the story of the aftermath of the July auction on the telephone a few minutes ago. I was not thrilled to hear it. The British Library catalogue shows the author of "Practical handbook of valve radio repair" and other books as being Charles Edward Miller, born in 1931. Assuming that this is correct, Chas is in his mid 80's. Philip is not too far behind and all of that work would certainly have taken it out of him.

Regarding set-up day, the available help has to be local, unless those who travel are going to stay overnight in a B&B. That decreases the pool of those who might be able to help.

Regarding cleaning up after the auction, I would have chair racks (if used) staged at the end of the auction and ask that everybody take their chair to the rack or storage area. Many hands make light work. Unless the process is completely foolproof, somebody should over see it. Otherwise somebody will have a miserable time sorting it out afterwards.

I understand that there are 600 lots in Sunday's auction, and plans for another at the end of January.

73 John

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

The October auction was a better organised affair. I got to Gnosall early on the Saturday and Chas & Jo arrived some time later. Others arrived and the trailer load was soon being sorted and put on tables. I had not appreciated that the lots would all be ready numbered and labeled, That must involve a lot of prior work we don't see.

Portering 3 handed went well, I managed to mix 2 lots but that was soon sorted, 400+ lots straight through without a break.

Clearing up was delayed somewhat by a few buyers being a bit tardy in clearing their lots but all seemed to have been claimed. Within an hour or so the tables were folded and moved out on the trolleys, Phillip did a sterling sweep up job, Chas and co had the paperwork squared away and we could all go home.

The only heavy part is actually moving tables and lots around, Son of Chas (sorry not familiar with his name) probably has the hardest job loading the trailer twice to bring the lots into the hall, I suspect that he gets little help. The kitchen kept up well well with demand for refreshments.

As far as local help, I would doubt that there are many interested parties nearby, Gnosall is quite rural, so yes, if anyone wanted to help on both days it makes a night in a B&B almost essential.
None of us is getting any younger and Chas & Jo must be considering an easier life, it needs someone to take over running the show with Chas' guidance but Chas will have to accept that not everyone does things his way, a essential lesson I learnt long ago.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

I’ve never been to a Radiophile auction as they are a fair distance away from me, but I am a subscriber. I was under the impression that a regular contributor to the magazine was going to take over the running of the auctions.

I’m assuming, from the fact that said contributor has now fallen silent, that this arrangement did not pan out to Chas’s expections. This is a shame. I guess sometimes, you need to let go. New people have new ideas, and any transitions can require a settling in time.

I don’t know the details about this arrangement, but maybe it’s a good opportunity missed....


SimonT.

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Simon - the full story is too long for here, but you are, in essence, correct. The problem is that too many changes happened simultaneously, and there were a lot of complaints from both buyers and sellers. In addition, the paperwork left something to be desired.

I did try and mediate between both parties as I still feel that the idea of someone taking over, even if just a bit at a time, would be a good thing, but unfortunately I couldn't really get a conversation going with the person involved and he subsequently told me he was too busy to take things further.

Chas is fairly set in his ways, it is true. But he does listen, and will accept advice provided it is limited and measured - for example the website, facebook presence, pdf magazines and catalogues etc. What he won't accept (and rightly so in my opinion) is massive changes to the way he has been doing things for years without prior consultation and well thought our reasoning as to why the change is needed.

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I'm not a member of Radiophile, and have only been to two auctions at Cowbit, which is like going to the dark side of the moon, but many years ago we lived in Spalding and are still in touch with friends and former neighbours there, so were able to make the journey worthwhile on two counts. After I visited Cowbit in Spring 2012, elsewhere I posted the following on 24 Sept 2012. It was intended as objective, rather than critical. It looked OK to me at the time and still does (only more so), but I've since learned that it wasn't at all well received in some quarters:

Quote:

I don't take Radiophile - only Radio Bygones and BVWS Bulletin, but I wonder how much longer Chas Miller can go on with it? He's a lovely guy and I still have my autographed copy of his 'Practical Handbook of Valve Radio Repair' from 1983. He's into his 80s now and I wonder for how much longer he'll be able and willing to continue producing Radiophoile, and if there is anyone in the wings who might continue it if Chas 'retires'?

I had a chat with Chas at the Cowbit Radiophile Auction some months ago. I was curious as to why he travels from his home almost on the Welsh border, right across to Cowbit in the back of beyond on the outskirts of Spalding, towing his caravan, when he could find a venue much closer to home. He explained that he likes visiting old rural churches, was at Cowbit Church many years ago, and got into discussions about the Church Hall and thought it would make a good venue, which it does, but the old adage 'location, location, location' went out of the window, though it all makes sense to Chas!

Objectively, such an event should surely be near centres of high population density such as the east or west Midlands. That said, it's very well attended, (including, from my point of view, by several unwelcome speculators rather than genuine restorers, hoovering up whole heaps of valves etc, no doubt to end up on e-bay the next day. I find that rather unseemly but a fact of life and I dare say the sellers are happy as they shift job lots rather than small lots).

Chas is an inspiration and proof of that old adage 'you're as old as you feel'. The workload that Chas undertakes would be daunting to anyone half his age, which - along with Gerry Wells - makes him a cornerstone of the hobby. Long may it continue - I doubt that either of them would take advice from anyone about easing off on the gas pedal a little! (Do we?).

'Radiophile' IS Chas.

End quote.

(Since I wrote that, Gerry Wells has sadly passed away, and Radio Bygones has ceased publication as a separate entity).

I'm not exactly sure what the aims and objectives of the Radiophile auctions are.

If it's to maximise the number of attendees - whether as sellers or bidders in the auction, or to any 'flea-market' stalls, then the locations chosen - especially Cowbit - will not achieve that objective as they're not near centres of population density or good road communications. If the number of attendees is reduced because of this, then people who might otherwise be willing to help, may not attend either. I doubt that the auctions can in any way be considered a profitable enterprise. Even though BVWS auctions, and events such as NVCF are well organised, well located, well supported, and with no shortage of volunteer helpers, a glance at the annual accounts shows that such events are more of a service to members than a net generator of income.

The most recent accounts (published in Winter 2016 Bulletin) indicated that in the year to December 2015, 'estate sales' (where most lots come from), gross income before operating costs amounted to £42,573, and payments, to £38,303. In 2014, 'estate sales' were £51,138 and payments were £53,960. Taking the two years together, total gross income from estate sales was £93,711 and payments were £92,253 - a gross 'profit' (if that's the right term), of just £1,448 before operating costs. Similarly, there are those who might think the NVCF is a big money spinner for the BVWS. Think again - in 2015 the profit was £2,658, and in 2014, there was a loss of £250.

With some 1,300 members, and a competent committee, BVWS can have a large enough print run to be able to fund four timely issues of the Bulletin per year in full colour. I'm full of admiration for Chas and his loyal band of helpers and subscribers but with a shorter print run and haphazard publication intervals, Radiophile is really up against it to cover operating costs. It seems to me that the Auctions are a distraction which require an inordinate amount of effort for little or no reward - perhaps even a commercial risk involved.

Others may see things quite differently, which is fine - I'm just giving my own perspective as a dispassionate outsider with no axe to grind, and no criticism intended.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

I think, David, that you may have misunderstood Chas's motive in publishing the Radiophile and running the auctions. They are not profit centres - indeed I suspect Chas runs at a nett loss most years, and certainly will for the next few years with the Radio Bygones takeover. Taken together, the magazine, auctions, and teaching workshops bring in a (very) small income in a good year, and a loss in a bad one.

As Chas has already said in his open letter, the auctions are already in the potential firing line due to the work involved. With too little income to pay people to help, the only alternatives are to get volunteer helpers or to close. I know Chas was very grateful for help given at the last auction and that has certainly put off the day of reckoning for a while - but we'll have to see what transpires over the next few auctions.

Chas does it because he enjoys it, believes he is offering a service that is wanted by vintage radio enthusiasts, and because who else would do it if he didn't? I doubt there are enough potential subscribers to ever really look at a decent profit, and Chas won't compromise on print quality or any other obvious way to cut costs (except the pdf subscriptions which he has recently agreed to offer).

The reasons for Gnosall and Cowbit are simply that the costs for the halls are low and that Gnosall is near Chas and Cowbit is near where he goes on holiday. To move venues would increase costs and add even more work - not a viable move as things stand. It is also unlikely that auctions in other areas would bring in sufficiently more bidders anyway as they are very limited in appeal except to enthusiasts and collectors who tend to be spread out over the country anyway.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

Thanks for your response Graham.

I wasn't so much thinking about profit as such, but balancing the books on such events, otherwise an inordinate amount of effort goes into it, only to be out of pocket. Chas has certainly been in it for the 'long haul' and it clearly hasn't been a chore for him to support the hobby for decades, to the benefit of many. As to print quality, I recall back in the 80s, before we had the benefit of computers, and typewriters were the order of the day, the forerunner of 'Radiophile' comprised several pages of typewritten sheets with hand-drawn sketches, run off on a duplicator and stapled together. The same can be said for the BVWS Bulletin, now in its 41st year.

Every good wish to all involved - I'm sure the thread will have given food for thought.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

If Chas joined the forum, he could tell us all himself exactly what the problems are, the underlying reasons and discuss possible solutions...

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

Chas doesn't use the internet at all.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

Thanks for your reply, Graham.

I don’t know either party personally, so I’m unable to form an opinion based on anything other than what I’ve read or heard. I understand that these things can be very awkward, especially when neither party is prepared to give ground and when stubbornness seems to run roughshod over any sensible solution.

It seems a Godsend that you are able to help out now, otherwise I think the Radiophile may have ceased already. The pertinent question that needs to be answered is, how does Chas see the future of his creation? Is he happy that the Radiophile will pass with him, or would he wish it to continue under the direction of another experienced radio enthusiast?

The incorporation of Radio Bygones into the Radiophile, to me, seems barmy! How can Chas even contemplate tackling more work when he can’t publish his principle title regularly? I think he really needs to be honest with himself, his family, and his subscribers.

If it were me, I would cease the auctions until someone else was prepared to take it on, and, if necessary, jettison the additional Radio Bygones workload.

SimonT.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

Regarding auction setting up, the BVWS book the RWB hall on Saturday evening for setting up, rather than having to do it all on Sunday morning. RWB is close enough to the BVWS store to allow two trips with the van if required.

Several years ago we could do it all in one day but the committee and volunteers aren't getting any younger either.

I don't know whether this is viable for Chas at either location, but it would certainly make the day less tiring, and could probably allow an earlier auction start (and thus and earlier finish) too. Obviously there is extra hall hire cost.

Mike does all the lot sorting and cataloguing (and photos for RWB) which is a lot of work in the week before.

The BVWS always struggle to get new volunteers too. I suspect the same is true in any similar collectors group.

I admire Chas for continuing this for so many years and at his age. Although it is not run as a not-for-profit group, it clearly isn't making a profit or steady income so must be a labour of love. Hopefully as a result of this discussion and the magazine message he will get some more support to enable it to continue.

BVWS volunteers get free entry and free breakfast. Maybe Chas could offer something similar, such as free membership to the auction catalogue service.

Regarding catalogues, BVWS ones are free (online only) as they are a good advertisement for the auctions. People are more likely to attend if they know what interesting lots are available. For Chas the catalogue service obviously helps fund the auctions, however it could be good to show and list some of the best lots online to tempt potential new attendees.

Note that although I am on the BVWS committee, these are my own comments, not BVWS comments.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

I agree very much with this. Although I've been to a few Radiophile auctions, I've passed on more, not knowing what the quality of the lots is likely to be on any particular occasion, and thus uncertain as to the merit in attending. It appears that the charge for auction catalogues provides part of the funding for Radiophile, but it's pretty common these days for such catalogues to be readily available online, to attract auction attendees.

Not my business, so not my say, just a thought.

Regards,
Richard

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

Hi Paul, the Radiophile auction is set up on Saturday morning for the Sunday sale, so its 2 days work.
Hence a helper needs to be 'round the corner' or its a night in the B&B, which is not exactly local either.
I can understand the lack of volunteers.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

I have in the past uploaded details of auction lots - particularly rare valves etc., but the overall attendance of the auction really didn't change, and it is difficult to get Chas to agree to changes without being able to demonstrate improvements. The other difficulty is that catalogues are rarely done more than a few days before the auction (probably mainly because Chas is doing all the work for these) and the priority is then getting out catalogues to subscribers.

I did suggest a few years ago that catalogues (or parts thereof) could be given free on the website, but the revenue lost from subscribers then non renewing is unlikely to be matched by increased attendance, so again isn't really viable.

The 'Auction Manager' idea was probably the best way forward, but after the problems the last time this was tried, I'm not sure that Chas would be happy to try again.

I believe helpers get free admission, and I'm pretty sure that regular helpers get free catalogues (though I don't pretend to understand Chas's system of who gets what!), but I understand the catering is done by a third-party, so again the cost of such concessions comes into the equation. It would be all right if each auction made a few thousand pounds, but when they are such low margin operations every penny counts!

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

The appeal of auctions is very much dependent on whether you are in 'acquisition mode' or 'disposal mode'. At my personal stage of my vintage radio 'career' I am firmly in the latter camp. Sadly, my own experience of selling sets via a Radiophile auction wasn't particularly positive nor financially rewarding. Potential buyers have to sit through several hours of bidding even if they are only interested in one lot - yes, I know you can come and go, but sometimes lots come under the hammer at unpredictable times so the risk always exists that you could miss bidding on your coveted item. The fastest practical rate that a good auctioneer sells items is about 100 lots per hour, so in the case of the 600 lots at the Radiophile auction, that's a minimum of six hours... :zzz:

I'm only highlighting these issues because I think they are relevant, and partly explain why attendance at auctions generally doesn't seem to be increasing. As 'we' get older, perhaps 'we' are less likely to be buying sets anyway.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

I believe you've hit on a significant point here Phil. The auction process does at times deviate significantly from the order in the catalogue, which makes management of one's time, judging when to pop out and back in, rather difficult. A midday start with an auction rate of 100 items per hour would at best mean an 18:00 finish if there are 600 items to be auctioned. That's too late for many of those people facing a long journey home, particularly in winter, which can't help in securing support in clearing up.

Some, hopefully helpful, suggested ways forward:
- use a single sequence lot numbering system, as used by auctioneers who have been at this game for generations, to increase 'lot time' predictability
- publish the catalogue online
- offset the loss in catalogue income by increasing the entry fee and/or charging a modest buyer's auction fee
- start earlier in the day, which should be possible if the set-up is done, as seems to be the case, the day before

Regards,
Richard

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

I think that is absolutely true Phil - if you look at the prices obtained at the auctions compared to similar items sold online, the price differentials are often incredible. Of course the problem with eBay and the like is that items have to be stored, packed etc., so there is a lot more labour involved than sending them to Chas or the BVWS. Large auction houses now often link to online auctions, but that is clearly not viable on a small scale.

I am actually surprised that more dealers don't attend these auctions as I'm sure with the right infrastructure (storage & packing facilities etc.) in place, there is, on the face of it, serious money to be made. When I moved house a few years ago and had to sell off a few sets I must admit I used eBay - I got an average of between about 10 and 20 times the price of similar sets at the Radiophile or BVWS auctions.

If I was buying, though, sitting through hours of lots to get a bargain would (at least sometimes) be worthwhile. And of course you can always put commission bids on in advance and just turn up near the end of the auction to see what the results were and collect whatever you won.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

Richard

Lot numbers were originally in order - they were changed as lots aren't generally stored by Chas, but bought up on the Saturday (and sometimes Sunday) and so arrive totally out of order leading to situations where not enough space was left to keep them in order. By using the codes, this problem goes away. Also lots were sometimes (often?) put in-between other lots for various reasons causing confusion. While the current method isn't perfect, it does at least solve most of the problems and lots do now tend to be sold in the order on the catalogue.

I've already said why the catalogue won't be published online and I don't see that changing.

When Rob took over the auction, he did charge a buyers fee for non-subscribers of the catalogue and it was very badly received. Chas won't accept that again, and looking at it realistically, it will likely only mean bidders offering less anyway, with no nett gain.

If the start time was earlier there would be less time for viewing and the people with stalls wouldn't have time to make many sales, so again would probably cause more upset than any sort of gain.

Also none of the suggestions really get to the bottom of the problem - the auctions probably work as well as can be expected given the nature of the goods sold and the number of interested people, but they are becoming more and more difficult for Chas to manage on his own.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

All understood Graham - it's a conundrum, with so many factors in play. If there's a desire to answer the implied question in the thread title, perhaps what's needed is a careful think-through of the relative order of importance of the objectives of the auctions, which might point the way to potential solutions.

In the meantime, I hope to be there on Sunday.

Regards,
Richard

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

That is probably the main thing potential sellers like, especially with estate clearances - no hassle! In recent BVWS auctions the majority of lots are estate sales.

I agree. Buyers premiums always cause confusion, and should be avoided. It is much easier for buyers to know the hammer price is the price they pay.

The BWS charge £5 entry, and have a minimum bid of £5 per lot.

We charge sellers 15% if they are BVWS members (or if it is the estate of a BVWS member, allowing for membership lapsing when the member became unwell) or 20% for non-members. We also charge expenses for collections, and sometimes a small amount towards storage (depending on quantity and value).

I believe Mike is becoming more picky with the items collected, so we don't have auctions full of low value rubbish. If it is unlikely to sell for at least £5 it is not worth transporting, storing and lotting.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

On the few occasions I've sold sets, working or not, in good or poor condition, it's been at a local auction house in their 'collectibles sale' where they've attained prices above my expectations. Like most auction houses, they do on-line bidding so it isn't just people in the room bidding against each other - it's the room against internet bidders. If your lot doesn't sell, you just pay the internet listing fee, which I think is 75p from memory. No hassles of packing and shipping, no risk of damage in transit, no disputes that the item is not as described, no need to travel long distances to vintage radio auctions.

But of course, at vintage radio auctions there's just radio stuff, and I guess a core if die-hard bidders, though as I said earlier, at the two auctions I attended, most of the sets that I saw sold went to a just couple of bidders, as did most of the quite large lots of valves - lots too large and diverse in scale for mere 'restorers'. Most of those in the room were like me - just interested spectators, rather than active bidders. Same at all auctions I guess, and same on e-bay. I often watch stuff I've no intention of bidding for, just out of curiosity.

As to Radiophile and BVWS auctions, as we've heard, such an inordinate amount of effort and organisation goes into them behind the scenes that most of us know little of.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

Good evening,
I think we have to acknowledge that the world of vintage radio is dominated by older people. I attend Harpenden, RWB and the NVCF and it's very evident that most folk are over 60 and many well into their 70's or 80's. I'm 50 and you don't see many people my age or younger!
Consequently, there is ever more gear coming into the market as people die off and a decreasing amount of people who want that gear. Auction prices therefore fall. Most 'woodies' often fetch only £5 or £10 or don't sell at all even after Mike Barker's valiant (and entertaining) attempts to get higher bids.
I don't foresee a sudden rush by younger people into any of these 'old man' hobbies- I think much of the classic car world will suffer a similar fate as well. After all, most of us are involved because we have a connection to these items so nostalgia is the driving force.
I have great respect for Chas wanting to continue with the Radiophile and the auctions, but without young blood coming into the hobby, none of it, even the BVWS & NVCF will be viable in the future.
Sorry to be pessimistic, but I often get the impression that people think that the next generation will pick up the 'old technology' baton and that we are all somehow restoring sets for the future.
Sadly, I honestly don't think that will happen :'( Most of the stuff, when the kids inherit it, if it won't sell on Ebay, will end up at the tip.
All the best
Nick

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

Nick is spot on.

Here's a true story. A few years ago, four vintage radio enthusiast friends (two in our fifties, two in their seventies) shared my car to and from the NVCF. When we dropped off one of the 70-year-olds at home, he showed us round his large collection of sets awaiting restoration. The other 70-year-old asked, "Just how long are you planning on living?!" We chuckled.

Six months later we got the answer, and a year later our car-full of four was down to two.

Re: Radiophile Auction - The future
 

I also agree with Nick.

Although some younger people are interested in this stuff, it is evident from this forum that most people working with old radios are my age (62) or older. If you come to the hobby without any familiarity with valve technology (or even discrete components of any sort) then it will seem very alien and distant, and restoration will be analogous to restoring old water mills. It will become an increasingly specialist activity with fewer and fewer casual tinkerers.

We also need to accept that a lot of the gear we work on is essentially valueless. Old radios were made in vast numbers and continue to be found. They aren't very practical in everyday use and most take up a lot of space. When we talk about preserving such things for the future, we are really just rationalising our enjoyment of working with this technology. The future isn't interested.