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-   -   A crapophone fix? (https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=149621)

firtree 9th Sep 2018 4:33 pm

A crapophone fix?
 
I have received from my very dear friends a wedding gift of one gramophone, but unfortunately, it is a fake - complete with the bad sticker and everything. Bless them, the girls meant well and I really, REALLY don't want to get rid of it, as their gesture was from the heart and very sweet.

I have searched the internet for a fix-up, but unfortunately, it seems that it would be quite impossible to make it work properly, so I turn to yous guys as Knowledgable People (TM) and ask for help. Is there any way I can make this work, perhaps by converting it into a standard LP record player, maybe hiding the motor in the body, speaker into the horn? No idea what to do with the soundbox or the hand...

I am not very experienced in these matters but did have (at one point in the far away past) some electrical engineering training, so I'm willing to give it the ol' college try. I mean, I can't break it any more than it already is!

I'd be grateful for any and all tips.

paulsherwin 9th Sep 2018 4:47 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
It's very sad when this happens. I bet it wasn't cheap either.

I think your best options are to keep it as a non functional display item, or to convert it into an FM/Bluetooth/MP3 player. Suitable modules are available from Chinese eBay sellers for very little money.

firtree 9th Sep 2018 4:57 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Thanks so much for replying! I dread to think how much they spent on it... I said, as a throwaway comment, a couple of months ago that I would like to have a windup gramophone at one point in my life, so this is the result.

I don't have much space in the flat, so a purely ornamental item is something I'd like to avoid. I could keep snacks in the box itself, but it's a bit large for a peanut container...

The MP3 player idea has crossed my mind, but am somehow hoping against hope that I can "frankenstein" it into a real live record player (albeit not the same type that it started its life as...). I just have no idea where to start.

Radio Wrangler 9th Sep 2018 6:47 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
One rather expensive way out would to do the reverse of the "The goldfish I was looking after for someone died" trick and swap it for a real one!

The motors in the things are real and came from wood box portables. The horns are indian coppersmithery and look unlike anything genuine so I suppose you'd need to find a good pivot and a good soundbox and do a bit of appropriate counterbalancing.

David

GrimJosef 9th Sep 2018 6:50 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Can you remove most of the existing mechanism and replace it with an electric motor-driven turntable with a reasonably modern arm ? If you can then conversion might be possible. If not then converting what you have into a standard LP record player would be a very great deal of work. Imagine you have a horse-drawn carriage which you want to convert into a car. It can be done (the first car makers more-or-less did it) but it wasn't easy. And I'm fairly sure no-one will have done it before you.

Cheers,

GJ

ben 9th Sep 2018 6:54 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
I'd look for a real but battered gramophone and try to make a working one (using, say, the arm/sound box and maybe the motor). Forget converting it to an electrical vinyl record player, the sheer amount of work would not justify the inevitably poor sounding result.

firtree 9th Sep 2018 7:07 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Thanks so much for replying!
David, the thought had crossed my mind, but the catch is I was intending to save up for a real one over several years (mortgage payments being what they are...), so swapping it right out is a distant dream in the future. I tried to find some genuine spare parts, but am at a loss as far as how much of it I'd have to replace.... The soundbox for sure, as it is a cheap fake, and the tone arm looks like someone sawed it off at one end to make it fit? Is that even possible? But unfortunately I haven't the slightest idea what model I should be looking for.

GJ, I think I could remove most of the mechanism, it looks like it's attached with a couple of screws, nothing looks welded to anything else. The tone arm is so fidgety I could probably sneeze on it and it'd fall off. Do you perhaps know of any resources that might help me not fudge this up immensely, maybe a forum or any sort of record of anyone doing something similar? I tried searching for it myself, but no luck.
I like the horse-drawn carriage analogy, it makes me realise just how much trouble I'm in...

The husband is rooting for selling it, but I object on moral grounds.

firtree 9th Sep 2018 7:14 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Ben, thank you for replying and for your suggestion. The motor looks fairly okay, it's mainly the tone arm and soundbox that's giving me a ton of grief. It looks like someone mistook the gramophone for an arts and crafts project. All that's missing is macaroni and glitter.
Perhaps any suggestions on where I can find resources that would guide me through switching the arm and knowing what model to use? I searched the internet, but being a total newbie, I wasn't able to find anything.
Gotcha on the vinyl conversion, perhaps I was overly optimistic.

Ed_Dinning 9th Sep 2018 7:34 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Hi, I believe I have a battered old arm, soundbox, horn and spring type motor board, not sure about the turntable.
Yours if you can get to the UK, or wait until next summer when I will be passing through Europort
rt.

Cheers, Ed

firtree 9th Sep 2018 7:45 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Ed, thanks for replying and more so for your offer. I'm not sure about getting to the UK soon but have friends there who might do me a favour of picking up spare parts in exchange for jam and homemade liquor.

paulsherwin 9th Sep 2018 7:46 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Just to be clear, you wouldn't be able to play microgroove 33/45 rpm records on one of these even if it wasn't a crap-o-phone. They aren't a great way to play the shellac 78s for which they were intended.

firtree 9th Sep 2018 7:55 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Paul, thanks for the warning. I have a couple of shellac 78s (old German foxtrot and similar weirdness, nothing valuable) and of course with the gramophone being what it is currently, no way of playing them :) I am aware of the bad sound quality, but I have to admit, to my shame, that I kind of enjoy the scratchy crackly quality. I had a listen to a 78 once upon a time, my da's mate had a gramophone player and I swore that when I grow up I'm going to get myself one of those.

1100 man 9th Sep 2018 9:23 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Hi Firtree,
It would be interesting to see some pictures of exactly what you have got. It's very unfortunate when well meaning friends spend too much money on something inappropriate. I do hope you can find some way round the problem although I've no idea how!
Good luck though,
All the best
Nick

bluepilot 10th Sep 2018 8:20 am

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
These things are produced for decoration. They weren't intended to be used as real gramophones. The problem is when unscrupulous or possibly just ignorant people pass them off as genuine ones. Trying to make a good gramophone out of it would probably involve throwing all the insides away and replacing them with something else. Maybe you can get a decent sound box for it. At least there would be a chance that you could play records without wrecking them even if they sounded horrible. Or you could just hide it in the cellar and only get it out when your friends come to visit.

firtree 11th Sep 2018 3:40 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
3 Attachment(s)
Stuart, thanks for replying. I'll go with the soundbox as I am currently low on cellars :D

Nick, here it is, in all its glory! (I hope I'm working the attachments right...)

HamishBoxer 11th Sep 2018 3:42 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Made in India I am afraid.

firtree 11th Sep 2018 3:49 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Hamish, yep, figured as much :) Waiting for Sunday's flea market to see if I can scavenge any spare parts, otherwise it's off to eBayland for me and hoping that I can somehow find a tonearm and a soundbox all in one go.

Audio1950 11th Sep 2018 5:09 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
If you do find one, bear in mind that when you assemble it, the point of the needle should pass a maximum of half an inch in front of the centre spindle. More or less than this will result in mis-tracking, and will ruin your records.

firtree 11th Sep 2018 5:29 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Audio1950, thank you for the advice! Do you perhaps know of any resources on how to assemble it correctly? A diagram or a manual, or perhaps an illustration or basically whatever that would help me not fudge this up completely? I tried finding some, but I'm at a loss. I have a woeful lack of experience with fixing anything gramophone-related and I'm thinking this might have been better left to professionals, but on the other hand I'd love to learn something new. So far the greatest success has been not having the soundbox hit my head when it flew off the tonearm (this afternoon's gramophone fidgeting left me with a couple of angry domestic animals and me picking myself off the floor). Still, I haven't broken anything. Yet.

Folks, I have to tell you this is shaping up to be a bigger project than I initially thought, none of the record players have treated me so badly yet. Still, I'm not giving up until the proverbial fat lady sings. But I am naming the next villain in my stories Gramophone.

Graham G3ZVT 11th Sep 2018 6:59 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
1 Attachment(s)
I had a similar experience a few weeks ago when I heard my wife negotiating with the shop owner to buy this

Attachment 169128

I quietly told her that it was not quite what it purports to be.

firtree 11th Sep 2018 7:10 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Graham, I selfishly wish she'd bought it, then I'd have some company in my quest :) But seriously, good save there.

Graham G3ZVT 11th Sep 2018 7:23 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Two things I'd say,

It can't be denied that the thing does have an aesthetic charm,

and it was only by reading this forum, that I had it in my head the likelihood of it being an Indian reproduction.

firtree 11th Sep 2018 7:30 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Graham, it does look quite pretty at that.

Audio1950 12th Sep 2018 9:19 am

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by firtree (Post 1074331)
Audio1950, thank you for the advice! Do you perhaps know of any resources on how to assemble it correctly?

Unfortunately, gramophones are not standardised, in that there were literally hundreds of different makes, with no two using the same fittings, except in a very few cases. To make your gramophone usable, you would need a new back bracket (the thing that supports the arm and horn), a new arm of the right dimensions, a new horn to fit the new back bracket, and a new soundbox to fit the new arm. All these parts would have to be compatible, size-wise, and taking into account the effort required to find the parts, and the considerable cost, (if and when you did find them), my advice, I'm afraid, is to forget it.

Herald1360 12th Sep 2018 9:35 am

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Surely if the arm already there is about the right length, all that's needed is a soundbox and some tinsmith type ingenuity to fit it to the end of the arm. As long as the arm material is solderable to it should be possible.

It'll never match a decent period machine for sound, but if it works and doesn't chew up records (any more than said period machine at any rate), job done!

peter_scott 12th Sep 2018 9:38 am

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Have you tried playing your 78s on it? Given that even the originals were far from kind to your records you could always record the content of your records and play them as you suggested with an MP3 player discretely hidden in the cabinet. If you don't find that it plays satisfactorily then there is a wealth of early recordings available on the web.

Peter

Audio1950 12th Sep 2018 10:14 am

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Herald1360 (Post 1074494)
Surely if the arm already there is about the right length, all that's needed is a soundbox and some tinsmith type ingenuity to fit it to the end of the arm. As long as the arm material is solderable to it should be possible.

The existing arm will accept a wide range of soundboxes without the need for any adapting, it's the other end, where the arm is sitting in the back bracket, that is the problem. Unlike original machines, these crapophones have no bearings at all, and are held in place by a crude bolt. No bearings = chewed up records.

Herald1360 12th Sep 2018 9:59 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Ahh. Ingenuity with miniature ball races required too, then.

firtree 13th Sep 2018 8:21 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Thanks all for your invaluable help. After careful consideration yes, I will have to agree, the task does look rather pointless. I'm afraid my ingenuity will probably kneel before the bearings, no idea how to even start, and I'll be left with a very decorative and quite big biscuit/peanut/snack box. There's a shop nearby that converts all types of records to mp3s, so if I ever feel the need to put together a very glitzy oversized mp3 player, I'm all set. The current feeling is one of despair, though, so I'll probably just throw a blanket over it until I can get to grips with the fact that this has been doomed from the start, I was just too foolish to see it.

Herald1360 13th Sep 2018 9:38 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
How about...... cut a slot in the base and fit a car radio/cd/MP3 etc unit?

You could recess it behind a door made from the cutout piece. There should be room for a suitable psu and a couple of small speakers either side too. Nothing too technical involved, just connecting a few wires and a bit of carpentry.

You could even pretend the result was made by Steepletone ;D

Refugee 14th Sep 2018 1:19 am

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
It would be interesting to see what would happen if you fit a small speaker to act in place of the sound box.
The horn would act like an extended baffle to improve the bass response of a speaker out of a toy robot or other bit of junk.
It would at least make the sound come out in the intended place.

Herald1360 14th Sep 2018 11:55 am

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
You'd certainly boost the output level like that by matching the speaker better to the atmosphere but I doubt you'd improve the bass much if any since the mouth of the horn is too small. It's similar to a typical PA speaker horn and probably less accurately exponential so I wouldn't expect much below around 300Hz.There're good reasons why hifi horns are large and the corner of a room is used in domestic versions.

On the other hand, it would sound quite similar to what the crapophone would have done if it wasn't crap! You could simply sneak in a woofer round the back of the box......

Refugee 14th Sep 2018 12:09 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
It would still sound better than a flat screen TV speaker.
A speaker from an old small flat screen telly may well be just what you need.
All is needed it to fit the speaker with a disk of hard material and a pipe fitting from a DIY shed. It would be a reversible mod too.

PsychMan 14th Sep 2018 1:52 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
I got one as a gift a few years ago at xmas. Same as the one Rambo posted, but mine was in rough condition, rusted (and bent) turntable. Perhaps they tried to "age" it, I don't know. I know my mum paid good money for it and its presently in the loft till I can be bothered to offer it here FOC, a last resort before I bin it entirely. Has a Thorens motor though :D

I did consider turning it into some kind of project but its not worth my time, especially when I look at my round-to-it pile of interesting and proper vintage stuff

AC/HL 14th Sep 2018 2:02 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Rather than hack it about and make it visually any worse than it is, maybe just do as you suggest, gradually relegate it and after a suitable period dispose of it.

Refugee 14th Sep 2018 2:13 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Quite a few people put gifts away in a place with easy access so that they can come out when the relatives that gave them visit.
I found a Kenwood chef in mint condition with the vinyl dust cover when the gearbox failed on ours (cracked casting). The seller was close by too so no shipping cost. It had never been used.

firtree 14th Sep 2018 5:46 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Hmmmm, the speakers solution is actually inviting. I have access to all manner of electrical tidbits and doodads and I'm sure I saw a tiny speaker lying about at work that would fit the existing soundbox, if I can jimmy it open without massive aesthetic damage. Ordering an mp3 module would be short work and employing The Husband's carpentry skill comes for the high price of 0 euros and one plum pie.
Hey, this might actually work! I'll scavenge some supplies on Monday and see if I can make this into an mp3 player of some sort.

The gramophone saga will have to wait its proper turn until I can a) scavenge some parts to make the fixup a relatively non-stressful ordeal with only up to two minor aneurysms b) I save up for a proper vintage item. As I said, I have a soft spot for the sound.
I'll post some pictures once the project is done if anyone would be interested. Not promising a super-good project or anything, but maybe someone would get a good laugh :)

This of course provided The Husband lets go of his dream of converting it into a record player. He's already started measuring and sketching...I married MacGyver.

John10b 15th Sep 2018 8:24 am

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Interesting project hope it turns out the way you want.
Completely off subject and purely as a matter of interest, do you read CD in English or is it translated into Dutch?
Cheers
John

Herald1360 15th Sep 2018 8:30 am

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
"See Dee" or "Say Day" in your head as you read is the question, presumably?

John10b 15th Sep 2018 8:37 am

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Charles Dickens (CD) :)
Cheers
John

peter_scott 15th Sep 2018 8:37 am

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
You don't need to go to a shop to convert records into MP3 format. The free app Audacity can generate MP3s from music on YouTube of which there is a good selection.

Peter

Graham G3ZVT 15th Sep 2018 5:14 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Online services like

www.onlinevideoconverter.com/video-converter

will download the soundtrack of most youtube videos directly as an MP3

crackle 16th Sep 2018 10:29 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by peter_scott (Post 1075278)
You don't need to go to a shop to convert records into MP3 format. The free app Audacity can generate MP3s from music on YouTube of which there is a good selection.

I thought you need to enable the "Stereo Mix" sound source to record off Youtube. It is possible to do this still in win 7, is it possible to enable "stereo mix" in win 10?

Mike

1100 man 18th Sep 2018 12:03 am

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Could not said 'crapophone' meet with an unfortunate accident? Cat jumps on table, crapophone falls on the floor and smashes into a thousand pieces... You'd be devastated of course and the only consolation would be to buy yourself a proper gramophone!!

Seriously though, I recently, for the first time, repaired a portable gramophone from 1927. It was really quite amazing to listen to records recorded in the early '20's. All of us youngsters (50 somethings!) were blown away by this totally mechanical device that could play entertaining music with no electricity! You will have to get yourself a proper one and experience the same thrill!!!

All the best
Nick

Mr Moose 18th Sep 2018 3:24 am

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Hello,
http://www.amish.classicalgasemissio...apOPhones.html
Have you tried it?
Yours, Richard

mark_in_manc 18th Sep 2018 8:50 am

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by firtree (Post 1075163)
This of course provided The Husband lets go of his dream of converting it into a record player. He's already started measuring and sketching...I married MacGyver.

If your husband really wants to go for it...it strikes me that if I wanted to mount the horn-arm-soundbox on bearings, and if I wanted to start from somewhere where most of the work was done already, I'd use the hub-bearings-spindle from a scrap pushbike wheel. I think having a gramophone obviously made of parts of a recycled bicycle would be quite cool. And all in the cause of hi(gher) fi :)

firtree 16th Oct 2018 4:01 pm

Re: A crapophone fix?
 
Hi, all, sorry for the radio silence, life got in the way. Currently, in light of other urgent and non-skippable life events the crapophone project has been put on the backburner until further notice :/ Thanks to everyone who contributed their invaluable advice. The project is not dead, it's just resting!

(oh, and CD the English way, see dee)


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