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-   -   Battery box and socket details. (https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=71256)

neon indicator 28th Jun 2011 3:35 pm

Battery box and socket details.
 
I'm designing some battery valve stuff and I know little about the Traditional 1950s battery packs.
I remember the WS 88 that fitted an Ammunition pouch and 1.5V + 90V battery in the other pouch.
I remember a "Lady Margaret" or similar portable that I fitted a mains eliminator into when I was 11 or 12. Also a wooden cabinet radio that took a battery pack.

Is there any site or list of standard battery packs and sizes? Maybe even with package artwork I could print?

Additionally I want to adapt internals of package and connector.

My needs
Possibly 3 off identical 48V nominal rechargeable packs with 1.3V NiMH for heaters in one "suitcase" radio. Each of the 3 LT batteries would power 1/3rd of the filament power. On Receive the 3 x 48V HT are in parallel, and on Transmit two of the HT packs go in series with main 48V HT to give TX PA HT of 140V nominal. The 2 or 4 PA valves are used as audio PA on receive at 48V. The push-pull audio transformer drive connections will have 2 x RF chokes in series and provide 140V to 150V nominal HT to PA on transmit. The RF from PA will be to RX/TX relay via 2 x 470pF or 1nF capacitors to a common-mode choke/transformer as balun so it will not affect audio.

The end point of the NiMH is just under 1V and absolutely fully charged are near 1.47V (no load) dropping at once to about 1.35V under load, about 1.25V average as they discharge down to 1V. Some datasheets / experts claim 0.9V or even 0.8V is endpoint, but 1V is "safer" to avoid a weakest cell getting "reverse charged".

AA: 1800mAH to 2200mAH capacities are more reliable. The 2500mA to 2700mA types self discharge fast sometimes in a week and last for less cycles. Eneloop are supposed to be best.
AAA: 700mAH more reliable in long term than 1000mA
PP3: 180mAH is realistic. The 200mA or higher may be not as good, or optimistic.
C: 3500mAH is likely OK, 4000mAH? I don't know. If it's 2500mA and light suspect is really an AA.
D: Most are actually C cells or even AA. Only really a D cell if 4500mAH

A modern NiMH C cell is likely not much lower capacity than an old NiCd true D cell. A Nominal 24V military set may use 19 x D size NiCd. Only 18 x C size NiMH needed to give similar volts and capacity.

So any comprehensive list of dimensions and voltages of LT + HT dry battery packs?

I think possibly 65V rather than 90V for some radios. Were only hearing aid valves 22.5V, no Radios?
Telecoms uses nominal -48V since forever. It's actually about 40V to 56V really as "lead acid" derived. Real float charged Lead Acid Car batteries are 13.5V to 14.2V, not 12V. Use below about 10.5V on a 6 cell battery usually means the death of it.

NiCd and NiMH doesn't mind complete discharge, but only if all cells equally, thus with a battery of multiple cells the one to reach 0V 1st gets destroyed by reverse charge from the others. Thus on NiMH a nominal 48V pack using 40 cells is 40V at discharge limit to average 48V about 54V "fresh" and maybe nearly 60V on trickle charge. It might be an idea to limit end point to about 42 or 43V and for charger to supply nominal 48V as well as charge batteries "out of circuit" to have longer battery pack life and more consistent operation.

The problems of cell matching and charge limits are MUCH more severe on Rechargeable Lithium technologies as discharge or charge beyond a certain point can result in catastrophic failure.

Most high capacity Lithium and NiMH batteries can't be kept on trickle charge. The NiMH the trickle charge can't be maintained when full like NiCd. That wears out the cell. If there is trickle current on NiMH once charged, it must not exceed the self discharge current.

ThePillenwerfer 30th Jun 2011 2:23 pm

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
Try this:-

http://www.the-thompson-brown-family...eriesframe.htm

The artwork isn't up much but it does give the sizes.

- Joe

neon indicator 30th Jun 2011 3:07 pm

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
Thanks ThePillenwerfer, It's a good start!

I see there was 45V, so maybe I should pick that instead of 48V.

38 NiMH is 38V to 51V, maybe about 46V average
36 NiMH is 36V to 48.6, maybe about 43V average

Most 48V relays are rated 33.6V to 96V
24V relays take slightly less power and are cheaper, two x 2pco in series gives 4pco

neon indicator 30th Jun 2011 3:39 pm

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
I think I can just fit 3 rows of 6 staggered columns of 2 x AA NiMH total 36 cells in the B104 "45V" box. Close enough to 45V

for LT I want to use C size NiMH. What do people think of paralleling them? They are about 3500mAH each.

neon indicator 30th Jun 2011 3:55 pm

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
Maybe AD4 for LT?

ppppenguin 30th Jun 2011 4:13 pm

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by neon indicator (Post 445297)
for LT I want to use C size NiMH. What do people think of paralleling them?

Not recommended. It may be theoretically possible but definitely not a good idea. They have very low internal impedance so large currents could flow between the cells. Some claim this is not a problem. I wouldn't want to find out the hard way unless it was essential to my application. Google nimh parallel for a wide range of views.

Also remember that your proposed NiMH HT battery is capable of producing very high currents compared to a dry battery. I would strongly recommend a fuse.

geofy 30th Jun 2011 4:23 pm

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by neon indicator (Post 444675)
AA: 1800mAH to 2200mAH capacities are more reliable. The 2500mA to 2700mA types self discharge fast sometimes in a week and last for less cycles. Eneloop are supposed to be best.
AAA: 700mAH more reliable in long term than 1000mA
PP3: 180mAH is realistic. The 200mA or higher may be not as good, or optimistic.

I have no trouble with 2650mAh Mallory rechargable cells, I have two in an automatic tin opener which stay charged for months, opening lots of tins. Four in a Roberts R9903 radio which also last for ages.

And a 200mAh PP3 Uniross in my recently repaired R200 which plays all day.

neon indicator 30th Jun 2011 4:26 pm

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
I have a military set with 18 x 3500mA NiMH C cells. A short on that as you say is as fun as a spanner dropped across a car battery!

I've always thought it's scary the way most Laptop battery packs have paralleled LiIon cells.

So I presume the trick is to have cells from same batch and charge level before paralleling them?

I think a bad idea to parallel cells that are not new.

neon indicator 30th Jun 2011 4:34 pm

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by geofy (Post 445309)
I have no trouble with 2650mAh Mallory rechargeable cells, I have two in an automatic tin opener which stay charged for months, opening lots of tins. Four in a Roberts R9903 radio which also last for ages.
And a 200mAh PP3 Uniross in my recently repaired R200 which plays all day.

Are those Mallory AA size? They may be a "good" make. Certainly the Sanyo Eneloop have a good reputation.

Certainly there ARE lots of reports of higher capacity cells that self discharge rapidly. The worst ones I bought self discharge in less than 2 weeks.

If you are charging every 10 days or more often you wouldn't notice.

Also "some" cells labelled as high capacity cells are not actually, so obviously those don't have the problem :( I'm now suspicious of "own brand" cells, though oddly Maplin is trying to sell their own AA for 50% more than branded Energiser of same rating. €17 for 4 "own brand" AA seems madly expensive. Lidl and Aldi are cheap. But don't have them that often.

richrussell 30th Jun 2011 4:47 pm

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
Something else to consider are the radio controlled helicopter/aircraft LiPo batteries. Extremely high energy density, slow self discharge rate, and come in various voltages (mainly 7.4V and 11.1V though). Though you do need a specialised LiPo charger and of course if they get punctured they tend to burn/explode very violently.

Actually, yes, you're probably better off with NiMH :)

geofy 30th Jun 2011 5:14 pm

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by neon indicator (Post 445313)
Are those Mallory AA size? They may be a "good" make. Certainly the Sanyo Eneloop have a good reputation..

Yes AA cells in both, the ones in the tin opener are in fact Eveready Energizer 2500mAh and get charged when I can no longer open my favourite baked beans, which is at least a couple of months.

If the Maplin ones are twice the price of the Energizer then get the latter, I am wary of own brands or cheap branded ones. If Mallory can't make cells then no one can, the only exception being the non-rechargeable Ultra range which seem to be prone to leakage I get the Plus range of Alkalines.

neon indicator 30th Jun 2011 6:29 pm

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
I made up the AD4 (in paper) correct size. It's huge. must have been 6 x D cells.

Was thinking maybe B114 with 2xC cells in parallel (selected new and measured) and 38 x AAA cells. (38V to 51V, about 46V average). Three of these will sit along back/bottom almost full width of the suitcase. The HT paralleled by diodes and denergised relays. In Transmit the 45V part of circuit is fed from one box and the other two added in series for 3 x 45 = 135V TX P.A. (1p24b). The valves heaters in 3 matched sets to connect separately to the LT batteries, so that's 6 x 3500mAH heater capacity.

But the AAA are nearly as expensive as AA, so I will go with 3 rows of 6 staggered columns of 2 x AA NiMH total 36 cells in the B104 "45V" box. Seems same size as B114, so three fit suitcase well. The RX will then have 3 x 2500mAH @ 43V nominal (49.5V peak) = 7500mAH HT, 35V approx "flat" and thus TX mode will be 2500mAH 130V Nominal 150V peak. About 108V near "flat", tapped at 43V nominal.

The RF PA valves used for RX loudspeaker Audio PA at 43V nom.

And just use regular battery holders for the C or D cell LT supply.

I see some cheap 3000mAH NiMH on eBay. I don't know that I really believe there are 3000mAH AA cells. The C cells are usually 3,500mAH. Some 4000mAH.

In any case I will use bench PSU till radio finished as 108 x AA NiMH is somewhat of an investment! (x12 the capacity of using PP3s though).

I have a nice 8" speaker and will cut the Pye rising sun + clouds as the grill.
What you think?

dseymo1 30th Jun 2011 6:42 pm

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
It's well worth considering the more recent 'pre-charged' NiMH cells such as the Eneloop already mentioned.
They really do what they say, having a very long charged shelf-life - ideal for an intermittently used radio. The discharge curve also helps prolong the effective life in most applications.
I use nothing else in my digital cameras these days.

neon indicator 30th Jun 2011 8:08 pm

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
I don't suppose anyone already sells a Reproduction B104 with AA rechargeables in it?

Where would I get the original style of plug & socket of a B104?
45V pack, no LT, 3.625" x 1.625" x 4.75" (or 92mm x 38mm x 121mm)

ThePillenwerfer 30th Jun 2011 8:21 pm

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
1 Attachment(s)
The obvious chap to ask is 'BatteryMaker' - the name says it all. I've made sockets by rolling tin 'round a drill bit and then glue-gunning it to a bit of formica.

- Joe

neon indicator 30th Jun 2011 9:04 pm

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
This may be of interest to people wanting battery info
http://highfields-arc.co.uk/beginner...teryequiv1.htm
Seems to cover all the common HT packs.

The original link from ThePillenwerfer (post #2) told me also what to look for so I found this too
http://mikeyancey.com/files/TransOce...b104layout.jpg
But it looks like the same file as on http://www.the-thompson-brown-family...eriesframe.htm (alias http://www.roberts-radios.co.uk/ )

Dave Moll 30th Jun 2011 9:04 pm

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePillenwerfer (Post 445402)
The obvious chap to ask is 'BatteryMaker'...

Forum name batterymaker1.

neon indicator 30th Jun 2011 9:05 pm

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePillenwerfer (Post 445402)
I've made sockets by rolling tin 'round a drill bit and then glue-gunning it to a bit of Formica.

Good idea

Though since I'm making it all, I need the plugs too. How would you do the plug?
Anyone know what the dimensions where/are on B104 plug/socket?

neon indicator 30th Jun 2011 9:31 pm

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Moll (Post 445417)
Forum name batterymaker1.

Thanks,
I found some old threads but wherever he hosted all the pictures are gone.
He may also not be much in the mood just yet, I think I know how he must feel.

broadgage 1st Jul 2011 2:02 pm

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
As regards paralelling nickel metal hydride cells, the suppliers advise against it.
There should be no need anyway with modern high capacity cells.
Nickel metal hydride D cells are available up to about 9 amp/hour, and F cells still greater. That should suffice for almost any set intended for zinc carbon dry cells. This high capacity cells are rather expensive, but that should not matter if only 1 or 2 are needed.

AA cells can be used in series for HT supplies, and I would regard a fuse as vital if useing rechargeable cells, and advisable even with alkaline cells.
Modern alkaline cells can supply 10 amps or more, which is a lot of heat in a small space if something goes wrong !
A 100ma fuse would be advisable for HT dry batteries.
For rechargeable HT batteries, a ceramic bodied fuse listed for mains voltage should be used, again 100ma should be fine.

neon indicator 1st Jul 2011 3:51 pm

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
But this is a new design of set. 10AH is 12 to 14 hrs filament supply :(
About x3 as many valves as traditional battery set. The pair of valves for Loudspeaker push-pull and TX RF PA use 220mA each. The rest of the valves are 16mA, 24mA, 54mA or 60mA depending on type. I might run 3 x D cells, one each for the two o/p pentodes and one for rest of radio. That would give 35 to 40hrs. (Target is a few days use between charges)

Yes. Fuse absolutely. Also software based "turbo" chargers are interesting to debug!

Some radios did originally have an LT box with 6 x D cells. But being Zinc Carbon, they probably less than one Modern Alkaline or NiMH D Cell.

The only LSD high Capacity D Cell (10AH) I found so far is about $12 plus postage and import tax/VAT. Each. Still, if you get 200 to 400 cycles it's a lot cheaper than Alkaline? ( Frankly I ignore claims of 1000 cycles).

I looked again at "giving in" and hiding an inverter in a battery box. But because it's such a meaty radio design, and not a simple "Lady Margaret" (4 valves?) you end up needing 4x or 6x 10AH D cells. The 2500mA AA are simply "best value" Watt Hour vs money you can get. AAA cost nearly as much and are 1/2 capacity or less. C cells cost 2x as much each (4/5ths Watt.Hour value) and "real" D cells are nearly x12 as much each (1/3rd Watt.Hour value).

BTW all the comments appreciated.

batterymaker1 2nd Jul 2011 3:33 am

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
I can get you all the data you need.

Grief is not the issue. Aggravation is.

Dealing with anything involving my Mom's life is like taking a trip to the magical land of "Wha' Th' Hell" because anyone she dealt with--businesses, doctors, lawyers, bankers--are inclined to be jerkies.

So, I'm trying to end all of the services she had--telephone, heat, light, water, and with these folks, you have to spend twenty times more energy getting things done. Because they're not Yes people. They're not even No people...they're HELL NO people.

As a result, I'm not building anything as of yet.

But I can shower you with data and scans.

Throw me a private message, and I'll redirect you to my email address.

Bill

neon indicator 2nd Jul 2011 8:30 am

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
Thanks Bill / batterymaker1

I've decided the problem is partly philosophical than engineering. :(

I can make and pack boxes and fill them entirely with batteries or partially and put inverter(s). I've even considered a pair of 12V 7AH Lead Acid Gel, or 1 x 12AH Lead Acid Gel (11.5V parallel via diodes, 24V or straight 12V).

Suitcase is strong tan leather and 45+ years old and looks about 5 years old. Used by my Grandfather as a lunch box when he went fly fishing.

Internal size is 11 x 23.5 x 37.5 cm (4.25" x 9.2" x 14.75"), with inside of lid rest on edge when closed.

I have a nice 8" speaker and printout correct scale of pye sunrise+ clouds (that I will cut with my router).

I thought it would be nice to use a real (though rechargeable) replica 1950s battery pack(s) for my imaginary alternate past 1950/1960 Russian sub-miniature valve powered radio receiver/transmitter.

broadgage 3rd Jul 2011 8:18 pm

Re: Battery Boxes.
 
Alkaline cells can in practice be paraleled, though suppliers advise against so doing. Any slight mismatch in voltage whilst standing idle can result in one cell charging another.
This can be avoided by only paraleling the cells whilst on load, switch the LT supply by a 3 pole switch such that the 3 alkaline D cells are only connected together whilst on load.

AFAIK "super F" rechargeables are available in 14 A/H which might help.
3 alkaline D cells if paraleled would be about 50 A/H.

Guest 31st Jan 2015 5:53 pm

Battery data and socket diagrams
 
1 Attachment(s)
Found a wonderful secondhand book shop today (The Cottage Book Shop, Penn. HP10 8LB) bought some books and one of them (Simple Remote Control) had this towards the back...

ms660 31st Jan 2015 6:00 pm

Re: Battery connexions
 
A good reference resource, a sticky perhaps ?

Lawrence.

mole42uk 31st Jan 2015 7:27 pm

Re: Battery data and socket diagrams
 
Fabulous! Thanks, a super resource..

Mike. Watterson 31st Jan 2015 8:35 pm

Re: Battery data and socket diagrams
 
See also www.blaukatz.com
I hope eventually to have everything 1887 to 1967 on it including labels, spec, connections and how to replicate.

Connector page for batteries http://www.blaukatz.com/tables/alldry-cells-batteries/
also http://www.blaukatz.com/tables/old-m...aid-batteries/

I've only just figured how I want to do the individual batteries
http://www.blaukatz.com/tables/alldr...ries/spec-ad1/
The label to print, construction details and such will be added on these sort of pages.

I have a lot of stuff in spreadsheets and nearly 50 replica types made. Also loads of catalogues (bought some of eBay from USA and UK). So lots of work to do. Any keen battery replicator/collector want to join forces and help?

Sorry lots of broken links as I was experimenting.

All suggestions for improvements welcomed. The connector pages combine three different sources.
I have an Exide catalogue on its way. Also I have old US Eveready, US Burgess and some UK Ever Ready.

Mike. Watterson 31st Jan 2015 9:19 pm

Re: Battery data and socket diagrams
 
1 Attachment(s)
Here is cleaned version of PDF as 300dpi PNG (fits on A4 or letter in Landscape)
Attachment 103514

I could probably get better scanning the original on my Document management Scanner.

I think most of this may be in the 1968 Choride Exide Dry Battery and Torch Catalogue I expect next week, so I may be able to upload a better image.

Contact me if you need any labels. I can add them on Blaukatz. I also can print on Colour Laser at cost for anyone that can't print colour. The inkjet prints are not very robust to damp etc.

Mike. Watterson 2nd Feb 2015 9:27 pm

Re: Battery box and socket details.
 
Note the forum has resized that small. I can email the full size 2754 x 2019 or put it on www.blaukatz.com

Mike. Watterson 4th Feb 2015 4:03 pm

Re: Battery box and socket details.
 
2 Attachment(s)
Here is 1978 Chloride Exide Catalogue connections. The Catalogue had Winner 9 Grid Bias, B101 (the small valve portable like Philips and Vidor Vagabond), B104, B126 (for the hat box portables, LT AD28, AD4 and AD35 all in LT section) and B136 for Sky Queen, Prince, King, Lord. No pack for Sky Emperor.
I thought sales of Valve Batteries ceased in 1968!
The Winner 9 has 1.5V taps so was used in Schools Physics labs. (H1001). It was first produced in 1920s. Of course the D sized cells produced from about 1899 and AA size before 1914 for "pen lights". (The A, B, C, D, E, F, G, AA sizes though are 1947 designations). B and F cells still exist in 1289 packs (still common on continent) and PJ996 packs.
Dry battery cycle lamps date from about 1906 as they needed the Tungsten Bulbs. Earlier dry battery torches really were "Flashlights" due to lack of depolariser and carbon filament bulb.

Preview
Attachment 103677

Full size in PDF as the Forum shrinks images.

Check www.bluakatz.com for battery updates

Guest 4th Feb 2015 4:42 pm

Re: Battery box and socket details.
 
Quote:

Here is cleaned version of PDF
Thanks Mike, the original was direct from my scanner, not perfect but readable. You have done super job.
Quote:

I could probably get better scanning the original on my Document management Scanner
Mine is only a cheapy! and from an opened book with 1950's 'perfect binding' didn't want to break it.

Mike. Watterson 4th Feb 2015 7:18 pm

Re: Battery box and socket details.
 
1 Attachment(s)
Here are three different pages of connections and the cleaned up equivalents.

Radio Wrangler 4th Feb 2015 11:36 pm

Re: Battery box and socket details.
 
I once made a matrix of sockets to fit wander plugs. The sockets themselves were short lengths of copper car brake pipe, the inside diameter is right. one end was cut and drilled to make a solder tag.

The sockets were araldited into holes drilled in a piece of cloudy perspex.

David

Mike. Watterson 5th Feb 2015 2:47 pm

Re: Battery box and socket details.
 
I use cut up Lidl Espresso black coffee tins folded to a triangular tube (some battery sockets are this profile). The lacquer print solders fine too. Handy for screening cans and ground planes.

The open corner makes it springy and work with solid battery plug pins.

For a 9V GB pack I solder them to top of 6 cells out of a pair of 1289, still sold as 3R12 today. Common on Continent, but some bargain stores have the Panasonic.

The life of a GB pack is essentially battery shelf life.

ThePillenwerfer 24th Jun 2015 12:28 pm

Re: Battery box and socket details.
 
1 Attachment(s)
Herewith a ZIP file containing actual-size socket diagrams which can be used as drilling templates.

- Joe

TonyDuell 25th Jun 2015 8:19 pm

Re: Battery box and socket details.
 
Looks like I did things the (very hard) way. When I needed to make up batteries for an old valve hearing aid (1.5V LT, 45V HT, although at least one source said 37.5V HT), I used brass rod suitably drilled and slit to make the contacts and drilled nylon blocks to make the housings. There are some photos of the process in the 'multitone hearing aid' album in my flickr account (tony_duell)


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