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-   -   When were ring mains introduced in domestic housing? (https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=179516)

m0cemdave 4th May 2021 7:53 pm

Re: When were ring mains introduced in domestic housing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by merlinmaxwell (Post 1371079)
I am not being flippant (honestly) but what does "deprecated" mean? In the same vein as "redacted" meaning blanked out, just to confuse mere mortals.

I regard it as the official term for "frowned upon" ...

duncanlowe 4th May 2021 8:00 pm

Re: When were ring mains introduced in domestic housing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by merlinmaxwell (Post 1371079)
I am not being flippant (honestly) but what does "deprecated" mean? In the same vein as "redacted" meaning blanked out, just to confuse mere mortals.

It means no longer used for new stuff. So not actually obsolete, but shouldn't be used for new work, and at some point in the future will be obsolete and unsupported. I've only really come accross it in terms of software stuff, where certain structures, modules, instructions or whatever will continue to work, but shouldn't really be included because at some point you won't be able to maintain it.

winston_1 4th May 2021 8:29 pm

Re: When were ring mains introduced in domestic housing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dave walsh (Post 1371087)
[you could do DIY electrics then8-\].

You still can. But it is notifiable work.

rambo1152 4th May 2021 9:02 pm

Re: When were ring mains introduced in domestic housing?
 
"Deprecated" in the context of obsolete or superseded, is often seen in Unix/Linux documentation.

Richard_FM 4th May 2021 9:28 pm

Re: When were ring mains introduced in domestic housing?
 
My parents' house was a bit lacking in sockets for a 1970's house, and over the years we added some more, mostly by fitting double sockets in the place of singles.

Paul Stenning 5th May 2021 10:19 am

Re: When were ring mains introduced in domestic housing?
 
When my parents' house was rewired in the early 60s (just after they bought it and before I was born) it was a sort of hybrid ring/spur system. The ring was under the upstairs floor to the locations of sockets on the ground and first floors, then round junction boxes were used under the floor for a single cable to each socket.

Sockets (MK single switched 13A) were surface mounted on the skirting boards upstairs (so no visible cable) and for downstairs the cables just ran down in corners and along skirting boards to wherever the sockets were needed. This used the aluminium cable clips that were tacked to the wall and wrapped around the cable so less visible than modern plastic ones, especially when it was all painted over.

Cables were just notched into the joists under the floorboards, but there were never any nail issues as the positions were marked on the floorboards with red paint.

The lighting was individual rubber cables in metal conduit with ceramic terminal blocks, probably from when the house was built in the early 30s as it would have been almost impossible to install that later. This was rewired in the late 70s, mainly because of regular fuses blowing due to the deterioration of the wiring.

Apart from some additional sockets (mostly spurs off existing ones), a consumer unit in place of individual fuseboxes in the 90s, and a separate installation for storage heaters in the early 80s, the wiring remained unchanged and worked fine until the house was sold to a developer four years ago after mum died. It will now all have been ripped out and replaced.

bionicmerlin 5th May 2021 10:45 am

Re: When were ring mains introduced in domestic housing?
 
When I was an apprentice in the late 70s early 80s it was a busy time for us as all of a sudden people wanted to have there houses upgraded with ring mains. Most of the time it was not economical to just retire the sockets so we often done the whole house .in those days I would say about 70% of the time we would be doing surface drops only hiding cables under the floor.. customers didnít want there walls chopping out.
We had one customer insist that everything was surface, not going into lofts or taking floors up . Saying cables should show for safety reasons. Mind you using buckle clips did look very neat if you brought cables down in the corners .
Itís very rare these days but I still very occasionally use them Andy

rambo1152 5th May 2021 3:43 pm

Re: When were ring mains introduced in domestic housing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bionicmerlin (Post 1371292)
Mind you, using buckle clips did look very neat if you brought cables down in the corners .
Itís very rare these days but I still very occasionally use them Andy

Low profile metal cable-clips have made a comeback, because of recent regulatory changes.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/schneider...100-pack/767gv

Lucien Nunes 5th May 2021 4:52 pm

Re: When were ring mains introduced in domestic housing?
 
Quote:

The ring was under the upstairs floor to the locations of sockets on the ground and first floors, then round junction boxes were used under the floor for a single cable to each socket.
This was a popular system in the earlier days of rings that still triggers lively debate about its merits and demerits. It does not affect the load distribution on a ring, nor are any cables unprotected against overload, therefore one can ignore the fact that each point is spur-like in construction. It is easier to chase in one cable to the point and easier to terminate.

A technical advantage historically given some importance was the ability, when wiring via traditional circular junction boxes with slotted pillar terminals, to run the ring itself as a single unbroken cable with the sheath and insulation removed mid-span at each JB. This is somewhat nullified today by the requirement for all junctions to be accessible for inspection unless certified maintenance-free to BS5733. Any JB under nailed floorboards must therefore be MF, but there are no MF accessories that accommodate an unbroken cable run, so one might as well make the connection in the socket-outlet.

Another aspect (more applicable to commercial than domestic) is leakage current. Historically, before the widespread adoption of SMPSUs, operational leakage current was minimal. Today, the aggregate current from many small Class I electronic loads within the rating of a single 32A final can exceed 10mA, at which level a high-integrity CPC is required. This can be satisfied with a ring CPC using dual-terminal accessories, so that any one terminal can be open-circuited without loss of CPC connectivity to the MET. The unbroken cable of a spiky ring via round JBs also satisfies this. With a limit of 3.5mA per 13A socket and one double socket per spur the single cable is acceptable too (although not if serving one hard-wired FCU point leaking >10mA; that would need to be on the ring proper)

Disadvantages include not being able to extend a cable from a socket to a second point, since the spur cable is not then protected against overload; one must take it direct from the ring. Plus a greater number of accessories, which even if MF, are a potential point of failure, and do take time to wire.

emeritus 5th May 2021 5:39 pm

Re: When were ring mains introduced in domestic housing?
 
Three years ago I couldn't find anyone on line selling the buckle clips that my electrician was looking for, which is why I gave him my recyled ones. Perhaps they go by a different name these days.

Lancs Lad 5th May 2021 6:49 pm

Re: When were ring mains introduced in domestic housing?
 
I've lived in Blackburn all my life - except for a brief interlude living in my Dad's childhood village for about ten months.

Dad was left a legacy in a will in 1976. Enough to buy outright a mature three-bed semi, on a country lane, on the edge of a delightful rural village in Lancashire where he was born.

A beautiful house, with a very large garden, bordered by endless agricultural land.

Very dated. Absolutely no improvements made by the elderly (sadly deceased) owner since she bought it new for £800.

Dad bought it for £8000, and decided it needed rewiring, amongst other renovations.

The local village electrician's name actually had the initials MK!

This story could go on for several instalments!

Does anyone want to hear more...?

merlinmaxwell 5th May 2021 7:35 pm

Re: When were ring mains introduced in domestic housing?
 
Yes, go on...

ColinB 5th May 2021 7:49 pm

Re: When were ring mains introduced in domestic housing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lancs Lad (Post 1371451)

This story could go on for several instalments!

Does anyone want to hear more...?

Yes!

I love tales like this, do tell...

Cobaltblue 5th May 2021 8:24 pm

Re: When were ring mains introduced in domestic housing?
 
I'm sure it's an interesting tale but is it going to stay on topic?

So the Topic is: When were ring mains introduced in domestic housing?

Can't see anything on topic in the last post.

Cheers

Mike T

m0cemdave 5th May 2021 9:50 pm

Re: When were ring mains introduced in domestic housing?
 
Maybe Lancs Lad would like to start a new thread.
But if it's going to be a tale of bodges, there is an existing recent thread that it might be appended to.

McMurdo 5th May 2021 11:29 pm

Re: When were ring mains introduced in domestic housing?
 
My dads house was built in 1954 in 2-core VR cable, 13A switched sockets recessed into the skirting boards (no back box) and seperate bare earth wire. Radial wiring with each room fed from a rewireable fuseway in a 'Kantark' hardwood fuseboard.
I'm kind of ashamed that is is still like that....

kalee20 6th May 2021 8:45 am

Re: When were ring mains introduced in domestic housing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lancs Lad (Post 1371451)
A beautiful house... Very dated. Absolutely no improvements made by the elderly (sadly deceased) owner since she bought it new for £800...
The local village electrician's name actually had the initials MK!

This story could go on for several instalments!

Does anyone want to hear more...?

Please! And if off-topic, start a new thread!

kellymarie 6th May 2021 9:51 am

Re: When were ring mains introduced in domestic housing?
 
The house i live in now was bought by my parents in 1988 when we decided to move to the coast anyhow the electrics all seemed in good condition I decided to find out what was what as there were 7 fuses over 2 ancient wylex fuseboxes turns out its wired with a ring main in the front part of the lounge and hallway a second ring which does the kitchen right side and back end of the lounge and 2 radial circuits for kitchen sockets and more kitchen sockets and dinning room and shed. Upstairs is a ringmain and 2 radial circuits one of which was originally the immersion heater circuit. This to me seems an overly elaborate system for a house I think it was rewired sometime in the early to mid seventies green only earth wires in a lot of the sockets. Wiring is PVC and seems OK

Cobaltblue 6th May 2021 9:59 am

Re: When were ring mains introduced in domestic housing?
 
Time to sign this installation off Rings Spurs and all.

Cheers

Mike T


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