Modeline experiments
 

Its been a few years but i wanted to try again the PC to video to different standards converting .
I ended up buying what is now a bit old i suppose Genuine ATI RADEON HD 2400XT 256MB B276 PCI-E x16 GPU Graphics Card
i had an old desk top running windows 10 ,so built the vga to video sync circuit have not bothered video the second pulse inverter part but its built in when needed .
So this is post one as i have a few post to do to explain where i am up to see if i can get any help advice on the problems i am finding .

Re: Modeline experiments
 

At the Start i had a few problems displaying both screens i am not sure this was because my desk top had a built in graphics on the mother board but i was just interested getting my plug in graphics card working which now it is checking what it can do its showing these spilt into 5 screens to post here.

Re: Modeline experiments
 

So so far so good ,you may notice the vga socket out puts a positive 5 volt i am using this for the second circuit that works off a 5 volt supply . But that's all for later on if needed .
I also split the vga input from the socket back to the second monitor via another socket plug vga cable so i could have both a second monitor and composite video circuit same time .
So every working there so far again so good

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Now we get to the experimental stage ,my thinking was i don't have a a 405 line monitor yet but plan to either make one or modify a 625 line monitor shown if i get that far ! depends on mode line and my graphics card cooperating ! :-)But i do have a 625 line monitor to test with if both mode line and graphics card can out put this its a start !
Well this sort of worked i also tried 525 line 60hz this worked also but from the advanced modeline menu as both those are there already i didn't need to paste a mode line for it .
So its a start and a start where the problems start for testing any thing else .
Since i do have mode lines for various tv systems people have posted and can use them to test i gave them a go so far no luck .
i should also mention i have hooked up my scope to view the sync pulses to see if they match mode line results and apart from 625 and 525 no luck .

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Now i didn't want to confuse things but before i tried all of the above i tested my Lap top with mode line it only has about 5 or 6 different graphic modes and all 60hz and using the HDMI Male to VGA Female Video 1080P Adapter Cable Converter i have a second screen .funny enough it loads pasted mode lines and they show up in the advanced menu where as this is not happening on my desk top set up ! i suppose i could type them in but i am finding the dreaded red in resolution when you select ok its green as you see as i selected one of the computers graphic cards settings other wise you don't get any further.
But doing so and testing the result is not what is wanted checking the line and frame rates
So that's where i am at the moment it should work on some mode lines but i am not finding its cooperating .any ideas welcome !

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Today i had another look a the lap top with modeline 1.9 i had success in that 405 modeline can be selected but it changed the 50 hz to 60 hz this laptop the refresh rate is just 60hz ,when i tested the line rate it wasn't correct .

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Next i went back to the desk top PC and tried the same procedure ,625 line worked fine but all the other modelines in this list in the photo were giving me this error code i am starting to wonder if the PC is just as important a factor as the graphics card...
What should be easier for the graphics card in the desk top is doing worse than the laptop !
Well if any thing so far i know the lap top can also out put 625 line how ? I am stumped !how can it also output this refresh rate and not the others ?

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Hi.
Peter Scott has had success with this but on Windows 7, I'm sure he said that Windows 10 throws up errors, could the operating system be the problem?
I think you can work with modelines on Linux, why not try a live disc or stick and see?

Re: Modeline experiments
 

OH it did cross my mind the operating system could be the problem ,funny enough i have the same desk top type 2nd PC with windows 7 it was my brother inlaws but needs a pass word i need to get off him if he still remembers !
Both this lap top and the desk top are windows 10 got me beat why same results with 625 line but different results with other modelines .
i am not really that familiar with Linux but if it takes that for sure worth a try .
I really want to work this out and good doing it here to get a procedure down how to do this right with out guessing why it works for some one and not for others on their PC.

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Fear not, I am using the same graphics card with Windows 10

Here is is a screenshot showing the driver details and the version of WinModeline I am using.

Attachment 257723

I fired it up the other day at the request of SWMBO who wants some Coronation footage playing on a vintage TV at our Jubilee party (Yes I know, it was a year later!)

Re: Modeline experiments
 

405 240 441 625 525 selected in turn.

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Hi Graham.

Thanks for the info. So we now know it works on Windows 10. I'm now going to have a go myself.

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Don't worry about the time delay took me a few years to get off my back side and finish this project off ...I was trying to get clues from you old you tube video ,there's very little on apart from yours on modeline and a pc on youtube .
One thing i didn't do was update the driver at all just plugged the thing in !
It working on windows 10 is a good and bad thing as i have to cross the problem being windows 10 off the list ; 0 )

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Well only 625 line and i think 525 are cooperating i will study these screens when i come home from work today to see my mode lines are the same or different .
On my desk top PC only the 625 line can be pasted in to mode line and it will come up on the advanced screen the others just say Hsyc error and will not select at all .

Re: Modeline experiments
 

That would be great to see what happens on your try .
There must be a correct procedure as plug and play is not really happening at my end correct graphics card or not .

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Does any one have a driver link or a copy off the disc ,i would think all that would be pre windows 10 on the disc .
As i said the one thing i didn't do was do a driver update unless it was already in windows 10 and i didn't need to ?

Re: Modeline experiments
 

found this put just gos up to windows 8
https://www.amd.com/en/support/graph...eon-hd-2400-xt

Re: Modeline experiments
 

OK i put your mode lines in both verion 1.9 .1.0 modeline first 2 photos 405 line selected the dreaded red came up darn !
Modeline "664x377 25 10.1kHz 50.0HZ" 8.100 664 680 752 800 377 379 385 405 interlace -hsync -vsync
Testing next 4 modelines below just got that red error message again would not even come up in advanced menu when trying to select them .
Modeline "560x220_25 6.0kHz 25.0Hz" 3.750 560 568 584 624 220 221 233 240 hsync-vsync
Modeline "656x383 25 11.0kHz 50.0Hz" 8.820 656 665 744 800 383 384 392 441 interlace-hsync +vsync
Modeline "640x540_25 15.6kHz 50.0Hz" 13.620 640 694 758 872 540 556 562 625 interlace-hsync-vsync
Modeline "570x456_30 15.7kHz 59.9Hz" 12.080 570 621 678 768 456 472 478 525 interlace -hsync-vsync
Again only one that came close was the 405 in the advanced menu the rest just show a red error in the sync message .
Testing 625 line as yesterday trying it works fine correct sync so i trust that one so far .
Its very confusing what the problem might be !
If i every get the lower line frame rates to cooperate i plan on constructing or converting a monitor .
Due to the dot size needed for higher line rates an old 40s electrostatic crt is only good to around 70 line ,i am not sure about a newer 80s scope tube or just got with an old magnetic deflected 625 line tube all up in the air till i see some correct Sync frequencies on my scope if i were wanting 625 line i would be laughing but my luck what i want is still out of reach .

Re: Modeline experiments
 

When I tried this a few years ago I got no success, the issues were faulty graphics cards, one with no sync, another with a missing colour another two just sat there with nothing. I gave up.

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Yes could be a lot of things !
I am a determined ****** when i want to be i want to find out (why is it so ) if you know the line from the famous Julius Sumner Miller long gone American physicist .
We know Graham and Peter have pretty much mastered it lucked it what ever the case it works for them so it can work.
So since it can work need to find out factors causing it not to work .
We are all i am sure using different PC's so that's a big factor ,if i get no where soon getting another PC or mother board might be something to try ,get one for 10 or 20 bucks from reuse shops down here .
As far as the card being faulty it seems to work for every thing else it does so i am thinking its ok so far

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Hi,
This modeline worked fine for me but I was using WinXP. Sorry the screenshot is a bit small but the parameters are the same as you got from Rambo. I find using the modeline window a bit confusing but keep trying - you'll get there!



PS Still works with the Radeon card.

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Thanks i was just reading up on your posts on this one ,i see you had a lot of problems as well getting it going same same my end .i think this screen shot is what you used as well ? I have to get my glasses on eyes not great these days ; )
i will give it a go ! try any thing !
Yes for me as well its not as easy as plug and play i am also getting the dreaded red error messages .
No problems at all 625 line that works fine , 405 at least its coming up in the advanced menu but red error when its selected .
Every thing else is just a red error some thing to do with the Hsync so don't even get any thing selected up in advanced menu .
I am home today and have time to try again fingers crossed
Did a Image to TXT convert below to get the modeline if that works
"Modeline ""664x377_2510.1kHz 50.1Hz"" 8.100 664 680 752 800 376 378 384 404 interlace·hsync·vsync"

Re: Modeline experiments
 

We know that 8.970.100.9009 is recognised by Jeroni Paul's utility, and is (or perhaps was) the one that will apply automatically by Windows Update.

That was my experience anyway.

Attachment 257783

What version have you got currently?

That said, I find it odd that the 625 and 525 ones work for you but not the 405
As far as I'm concerned your setup is working! It's something silly.

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Well mine is 9001 i can see as a difference Graham . perhaps thats the problem when i did a windows update on the driver it says after looking i am using the best version but i will try again .
Yes it is very strange 625 line works rest pretty much all error's just trying to find any thing else mode line wise that will paste and show up correct in advanced menu .
i am home today playing with it at the moment BTW sorry about the screen shot i haven't got a screen grabber on this old pc and its playing up on the wi fi...EDIT i just tried a windows update on the driver and just coming up again with i am using the best driver for the it sounds like i have an earlier driver if its 9001 see if i can find one on the net by searching ?

Re: Modeline experiments
 

No way to post a video here but i put one up on youtube to show the errors
so link below
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDkYIompUwQ

Re: Modeline experiments
 

OH i just checked the picture again you are using the same driver and date as me 8.970.100.9001 i see the 8.970.100.9009 was a typeo

So its not the driver i think i am going to have to try this video card in another machine there's not much i can do apart from try another PC and or windows as using every thing else mode lines and card ...my luck !

Re: Modeline experiments
 

I don't think its the hardware, you are 99% there mate!

Looking at the video, there is an obvious formatting error in the last modeline, perhaps there are others I can't see, so I suggest you carefully select, then copy and paste my working modelines into your Winmodelines window and do the reboot when it asks for it.

I must say that the way you are switching between standards is exactly the way I do it.
There is a final "OK" dialogue which doesn't appear on the video because it's on the screen that is now blank, I don't click that and it allows the "Esc" key to revert the screen back to normal as you have descovered.



Peter Scott uses the Windows resolution slider to switch to the system he wants, but that doesn't work too well for me for some reason.

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Thanks Graham i will try that today never know fingers crossed ,i am also getting the 2nd PC up and running to see if that was the cause ,i will report back later today .
If i get it going i will stick with simplest way to get it up and running ,its a pretty good tool for any one interested in this sort of thing .
Yes i will stick with it you and peter have it working so its some thing i want to do as well ...
Problems are a pain but least if i get it going it might help some one else in the same boat and some thing to review if it happens again .

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Well Graham i had a bit of success today !
First up i got the second PC which is same make as the one i was using and reloaded windows 7 on it and wifi so on and mode line
Copy pasted your mode lines and they where all coming up but in red then i rebooted it and they all came up green and worked .
I was so happy to see 405 line syncs up on my scope so i knew it worked .
I then got greedy ! i pasted Peters 180 line at first giving an error but it was just the litte - negative was missing from the hsync on its modeline it then came up in red and thinking ok reboot and it should work like the others my luck i had used the main monitor and mode display same so when i rebooted it got stuck and was only displaying in 625 line for some reason and i could not change it back no matter what i did the extended display is there but trying control panel to change display was all on the 625 line side i don't have a monitor hooked up yet .
So just reloading a new windows i learn from my mistake ! So close but i now know i can do it with care ; )

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Quick video of todays results
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OiIe8MkHgE

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Well so far i have had to reload windows 3 times due to a mistakes .
I now know most of the time if the mode line or lines works once loaded it will be in red you then have to reboot for these to work ..main problem is if you have the correct display one or two as the main display if you get it wrong the main display will reboot to what ever you selected last in the mode line menu and your stuck unless you have a old tv crt monitor connected that would help.
Once working my advice is don't touch the ****** thing ! retrying over and over i am getting the hang of mode line its the display one or two if i change them you forget what was what very fast and its a toss up what you get display wise some thing or nothing on the main display .
experimenting you win some times you loose way to learn .
What i want to do now is see if the mode lines selected and the sync on my scope frequency meter are showing what it should be or the same as you Graham and peter and who ever else has this .
i will look into that tomorrow ...but great day indeed !

Re: Modeline experiments
 

After a few more go's every thing looks good i think also because i have different brand monitors that's a factor that was stuffing me up a bit pretty much going to mark the vga plugs to the monitors and in and out of the graphics vga plug sockets that will make life easier if i have to unplug this and put it back together.
Now what works and what doesn't as far as modelines i have tried
All your mode lines Graham you kindly posted work great no problems, also below is the list off my modeline menu and some others i found scattered on this forum they work too.
Modeline "664x377_25 10.1kHz 50.0Hz" 8.100 664 680 752 800 377 379 385 405 interlace -hsync -vsync
Modeline "560x220_25 6.0kHz 25.0Hz" 3.750 560 568 584 624 220 221 233 240 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "656x383_25 11.0kHz 50.0Hz" 8.820 656 665 744 800 383 384 392 441 interlace -hsync +vsync
Modeline "640x540_25 15.6kHz 50.0Hz" 13.620 640 694 758 872 540 556 562 625 interlace -hsync -vsync
Modeline "570x456_30 15.7kHz 59.9Hz" 12.080 570 621 678 768 456 472 478 525 interlace -hsync -vsync
Modeline "1500x580_25 15.6kHz 50.0Hz" 26.880 1500 1508 1605 1720 580 582 596 625 interlace -hsync -vsync
Modeline "1500x100_25 2.7kHz 25.0Hz" 8.020 1500 2828 2938 2999 100 103 105 107 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "1152x738_25 20.5kHz 50.0Hz" 29.320 1152 1168 1240 1432 738 744 745 819 interlace -hsync +vsync
I had trouble having 120 line in this list at first but works after pasteing the mode line after the others were rebooted to work ,thats one of Peter Scotts
Modeline "1500x100_25 3.0kHz" 8.840 1500 2828 2938 2948 100 105 110 120 -hsync -vsync
Now what i also wanted but doesn't work so far i am interested in can't seem to get this one going if any one see's a mistake in the modeline
Modeline "900x180_25 4.5kHz 25.0Hz" 4.050 664 728 784 900 170 172 176 180 -hsync -vsync
There are others but pretty much same line frame rates with different modeline settings
Testing the results on the scope
as in list above
Line H V
405 10.12khz 50hz
240 12.82khz 53.44 hz
441 11.04khz 50hz
625 15.65khz 50hz
525 15.70khz 59.79hz
625 1500x580........15.60khz 49.92hz
107 2.674khz 25hz
819 20.52khz 25hz
120 2.677khz 25hz

Like 180 line going if any one can help

Re: Modeline experiments
 

This was really a 2 part project first get the modeline and the old pc to output at least 405 line next comes to the monitor construction half and idea so far:-)

Re: Modeline experiments
 

I see you have built Peter's monostable circuit.
This is my effort. I've used three pots instead of fixed resistors for the RGB.

Attachment 257930

This shows what we are trying to add, eight "Broad Pulses" at half-line rate.

Attachment 257935

And here's what I got in practice after careful adjustment of the timing.
Even field.

Attachment 257931

And odd field.

Attachment 257932

Without this circuit in place there is no interlace apparent on my old Cossor 916, although my other set a Sony 9-90UB seems to manage without it, although I may be being fooled by its smaller screen size.

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Thanks Graham for the information on adjusting the video signal....
Its some thing i will also do when i get closer to testing the monitor ,still in the concept stage getting parts together so we don't have any sets to test on i will have to construct one below what 405 line was like for us .
In Australia we only had experimental 405 in Melbourne in the late 40s
FIRST ALL-ELECTRONIC TELEVISION CHAIN TO REACH AUSTRALIA was this British Pye 405-line closed circuit outfit at the end of 1948. Astor Radio (Radio Corp of Australia) and Pye toured with public demonstrations of this outfit around agricultural shows in various parts of Australia. It was a blatant attempt to pressure the Australian government into the usage of the British 405-line system. The Chifley Government initially indicated a desire to set up a TV broadcasting system along BBC lines - ie., a national and non-commercial network only. When Chifley was displaced by Menzies, the whole subject was reconsidered, and an expert panel appointed to tour the world seeking suitable Australian TV broadcasting standards decided on the 625 line system. This was used until the end of analog transmissions in this country. Menzies also insisted on a parallel opening of commercial TV stations after 1956 - the system we still enjoy. The photos are from the collection of the State Library of Victoria.

Re: Modeline experiments
 

As mentioned i have no choice but to construct a monitor if i want view any thing apart from 625 525 line ,i do have a monitor that might do 405 badly but rather build one where i hope to make it multi system and view most of those early television systems i can now output to it .
i have picked a tube i have handy not to big nice size for this ,its a 14SX3Y4 5.5inch black and white CRT having 12.6V 75mA heater with tests ok on a conductivity and voltage test .
Data for most CRTS like this are hard to come by but there are scraps of information gold
Filament voltage : 12V Filament current :75mA
Typical operation:
Final anode : 8KV
Vg2 : 100V there also have 300V version
Vg1 : -35V +/- 10V
some one in Poland who experimented with one mentioned the below
On the focus grid i remember the focus grid is connect to ground.. This are tetrode electron gun the final voltage 8KV will work well at lower voltage just the brightness will decrease.
So more than likely start on the ramp oscillators so they can be synced and deflection amplifiers i will not light the tube till i have at least one deflection amplifier feeding the yoke.

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Came across this mode line calculator
https://www.epanorama.net/faq/vga2rgb/calc.html

Re: Modeline experiments
 

The sync separator ramp generators and deflection amplifier's finished need for look into the fly back transformer next about 8kv for his tube

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Looking good.
Have been following this and keep checking in.

Re: Modeline experiments
 

I have been doing the build on the NBTV forum but did mean to update here , i have finished the power supply the eht supply ramp generators deflection amplifier vertical deflection shown in and out of the power transistors to the yoke.
I will keep posting as construction go's on ,got to power up the crt soon

Re: Modeline experiments
 

I have the horizontal scan up i am going to need a position control to work out the amount the correct adjustment to the 5 ohm resistor .
Also will be experimenting with the 2 capacitors on the input and yoke coil
Scans about 10 khz as i will be trying 405 line first when i get the raster correct

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Hi.
Just wondering how many have got this to work successfully.
Recently I've been giving thought to how I want to proceed with the hobby itself and am thinking that if I keep just a couple of sets. The PC based standards conversion is really all I need, I have an ex ITV sound and vision band 3 test modulator that is a superb unit and the vestigial filter too so this would be my source of signal for band 3 and my rod pentode modulator for band 1. The PC is a Dell Optiplex 480 and I wonder if this is suitable with the appropriate graphics card?

Re: Modeline experiments
 

As long as it has a PCI Express slot.

ATI Radeon HD 2400 XT cards are cheap on Ebay, don't forget you need the DMS-59 to VGA Cable.

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Hi Trevor,

I'm using a Dell Optiplex 780 with the HD2400XT sound card.

Peter

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Hello Trevor,

I use a Dell Optiplex 755 with an ATI HD2400XT graphics card.
Only 4 GB memory (Windows 7 32 bit). and a 120 GB SSD.

These days I only use this for 819 lines, but it has been over two and a half years that it was in service. Must see soon if it is still working...

Jac

Re: Modeline experiments
 

I forgot to mention that I had quite a lot of help from Peter Scott in getting everything working properly.

In the end I did not use any additional circuitry to get the synch signals better. Just the simple circuit with resistors and a capacitor which I built into a VGA connector.

Jac

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Hi Peter.
Mine is not a 480 but the same as yours a 780.
Thanks for the info.

Re: Modeline experiments
 

Hi Trevor,

I did try to see what the difference was but failed.

Peter :dunce: ;)

Re: Modeline experiments
 

I use my main computer, an Optiplex 990.

Re: Modeline experiments
 

First up so sorry I have not been active here for a while, been working on the monitor, had a hell of time working out the deflection circuits, I had used them before but was just getting a small raster.

Now on mode line it's really all I need in the lower NBTV range we have other software or low def television, for me on modeline I am now able to experiment above 100 lines.
If we had old 405 line sets here I would use it for this but any thing below 625 I have to convert of make something. I will post up where I am up to today.