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-   -   Modeline experiments (https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=191396)

Keith 25th May 2022 4:13 pm

Re: Modeline experiments
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hi,
This modeline worked fine for me but I was using WinXP. Sorry the screenshot is a bit small but the parameters are the same as you got from Rambo. I find using the modeline window a bit confusing but keep trying - you'll get there!



PS Still works with the Radeon card.

dalekmoore2007 25th May 2022 11:19 pm

Re: Modeline experiments
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith (Post 1472987)
Hi,
This modeline worked fine for me but I was using WinXP. Sorry the screenshot is a bit small but the parameters are the same as you got from Rambo. I find using the modeline window a bit confusing but keep trying - you'll get there!



PS Still works with the Radeon card.

Thanks i was just reading up on your posts on this one ,i see you had a lot of problems as well getting it going same same my end .i think this screen shot is what you used as well ? I have to get my glasses on eyes not great these days ; )
i will give it a go ! try any thing !
Yes for me as well its not as easy as plug and play i am also getting the dreaded red error messages .
No problems at all 625 line that works fine , 405 at least its coming up in the advanced menu but red error when its selected .
Every thing else is just a red error some thing to do with the Hsync so don't even get any thing selected up in advanced menu .
I am home today and have time to try again fingers crossed
Did a Image to TXT convert below to get the modeline if that works
"Modeline ""664x377_2510.1kHz 50.1Hz"" 8.100 664 680 752 800 376 378 384 404 interlace·hsync·vsync"

rambo1152 25th May 2022 11:33 pm

Re: Modeline experiments
 
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by dalekmoore2007 (Post 1472776)
Does any one have a driver link or a copy off the disc ,i would think all that would be pre windows 10 on the disc .
As i said the one thing i didn't do was do a driver update unless it was already in windows 10 and i didn't need to ?



We know that 8.970.100.9009 is recognised by Jeroni Paul's utility, and is (or perhaps was) the one that will apply automatically by Windows Update.

That was my experience anyway.

Attachment 257783

What version have you got currently?

That said, I find it odd that the 625 and 525 ones work for you but not the 405
As far as I'm concerned your setup is working! It's something silly.

dalekmoore2007 26th May 2022 1:00 am

Re: Modeline experiments
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by rambo1152 (Post 1473112)
Quote:

Originally Posted by dalekmoore2007 (Post 1472776)
Does any one have a driver link or a copy off the disc ,i would think all that would be pre windows 10 on the disc .
As i said the one thing i didn't do was do a driver update unless it was already in windows 10 and i didn't need to ?



We know that 8.970.100.9009 is recognised by Jeroni Paul's utility, and is (or perhaps was) the one that will apply automatically by Windows Update.

That was my experience anyway.

Attachment 257783

What version have you got currently?

That said, I find it odd that the 625 and 525 ones work for you but not the 405
As far as I'm concerned your setup is working! It's something silly.

Well mine is 9001 i can see as a difference Graham . perhaps thats the problem when i did a windows update on the driver it says after looking i am using the best version but i will try again .
Yes it is very strange 625 line works rest pretty much all error's just trying to find any thing else mode line wise that will paste and show up correct in advanced menu .
i am home today playing with it at the moment BTW sorry about the screen shot i haven't got a screen grabber on this old pc and its playing up on the wi fi...EDIT i just tried a windows update on the driver and just coming up again with i am using the best driver for the it sounds like i have an earlier driver if its 9001 see if i can find one on the net by searching ?

dalekmoore2007 26th May 2022 2:13 am

Re: Modeline experiments
 
No way to post a video here but i put one up on youtube to show the errors
so link below
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDkYIompUwQ

dalekmoore2007 26th May 2022 10:07 am

Re: Modeline experiments
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rambo1152 (Post 1473112)


We know that 8.970.100.9009 is recognised by Jeroni Paul's utility, and is

OH i just checked the picture again you are using the same driver and date as me 8.970.100.9001 i see the 8.970.100.9009 was a typeo

So its not the driver i think i am going to have to try this video card in another machine there's not much i can do apart from try another PC and or windows as using every thing else mode lines and card ...my luck !

rambo1152 26th May 2022 12:06 pm

Re: Modeline experiments
 
I don't think its the hardware, you are 99% there mate!

Looking at the video, there is an obvious formatting error in the last modeline, perhaps there are others I can't see, so I suggest you carefully select, then copy and paste my working modelines into your Winmodelines window and do the reboot when it asks for it.

Code:

Modeline "664x377_25 10.1kHz 50.0Hz" 8.100 664 680 752 800 377 379 385 405 interlace -hsync -vsync 
Modeline "560x220_25 6.0kHz 25.0Hz" 3.750 560 568 584 624 220 221 233 240  -hsync -vsync 
Modeline "656x383_25 11.0kHz 50.0Hz" 8.820 656 665 744 800 383 384 392 441 interlace -hsync +vsync 
Modeline "640x540_25 15.6kHz 50.0Hz" 13.620 640 694 758 872 540 556 562 625 interlace -hsync -vsync 
Modeline "570x456_30 15.7kHz 59.9Hz" 12.080 570 621 678 768 456 472 478 525 interlace -hsync -vsync

I must say that the way you are switching between standards is exactly the way I do it.
There is a final "OK" dialogue which doesn't appear on the video because it's on the screen that is now blank, I don't click that and it allows the "Esc" key to revert the screen back to normal as you have descovered.



Peter Scott uses the Windows resolution slider to switch to the system he wants, but that doesn't work too well for me for some reason.

dalekmoore2007 26th May 2022 11:49 pm

Re: Modeline experiments
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rambo1152 (Post 1473201)
I don't think its the hardware, you are 99% there mate!

Looking at the video, there is an obvious formatting error in the last modeline, perhaps there are others I can't see, so I suggest you carefully select, then copy and paste my working modelines into your Winmodelines window and do the reboot when it asks for it.

Code:

Modeline "664x377_25 10.1kHz 50.0Hz" 8.100 664 680 752 800 377 379 385 405 interlace -hsync -vsync 
Modeline "560x220_25 6.0kHz 25.0Hz" 3.750 560 568 584 624 220 221 233 240  -hsync -vsync 
Modeline "656x383_25 11.0kHz 50.0Hz" 8.820 656 665 744 800 383 384 392 441 interlace -hsync +vsync 
Modeline "640x540_25 15.6kHz 50.0Hz" 13.620 640 694 758 872 540 556 562 625 interlace -hsync -vsync 
Modeline "570x456_30 15.7kHz 59.9Hz" 12.080 570 621 678 768 456 472 478 525 interlace -hsync -vsync

I must say that the way you are switching between standards is exactly the way I do it.
There is a final "OK" dialogue which doesn't appear on the video because it's on the screen that is now blank, I don't click that and it allows the "Esc" key to revert the screen back to normal as you have descovered.



Peter Scott uses the Windows resolution slider to switch to the system he wants, but that doesn't work too well for me for some reason.

Thanks Graham i will try that today never know fingers crossed ,i am also getting the 2nd PC up and running to see if that was the cause ,i will report back later today .
If i get it going i will stick with simplest way to get it up and running ,its a pretty good tool for any one interested in this sort of thing .
Yes i will stick with it you and peter have it working so its some thing i want to do as well ...
Problems are a pain but least if i get it going it might help some one else in the same boat and some thing to review if it happens again .

dalekmoore2007 27th May 2022 5:17 am

Re: Modeline experiments
 
2 Attachment(s)
Well Graham i had a bit of success today !
First up i got the second PC which is same make as the one i was using and reloaded windows 7 on it and wifi so on and mode line
Copy pasted your mode lines and they where all coming up but in red then i rebooted it and they all came up green and worked .
I was so happy to see 405 line syncs up on my scope so i knew it worked .
I then got greedy ! i pasted Peters 180 line at first giving an error but it was just the litte - negative was missing from the hsync on its modeline it then came up in red and thinking ok reboot and it should work like the others my luck i had used the main monitor and mode display same so when i rebooted it got stuck and was only displaying in 625 line for some reason and i could not change it back no matter what i did the extended display is there but trying control panel to change display was all on the 625 line side i don't have a monitor hooked up yet .
So just reloading a new windows i learn from my mistake ! So close but i now know i can do it with care ; )

dalekmoore2007 27th May 2022 6:23 am

Re: Modeline experiments
 
Quick video of todays results
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OiIe8MkHgE

dalekmoore2007 27th May 2022 7:56 am

Re: Modeline experiments
 
Well so far i have had to reload windows 3 times due to a mistakes .
I now know most of the time if the mode line or lines works once loaded it will be in red you then have to reboot for these to work ..main problem is if you have the correct display one or two as the main display if you get it wrong the main display will reboot to what ever you selected last in the mode line menu and your stuck unless you have a old tv crt monitor connected that would help.
Once working my advice is don't touch the ****** thing ! retrying over and over i am getting the hang of mode line its the display one or two if i change them you forget what was what very fast and its a toss up what you get display wise some thing or nothing on the main display .
experimenting you win some times you loose way to learn .
What i want to do now is see if the mode lines selected and the sync on my scope frequency meter are showing what it should be or the same as you Graham and peter and who ever else has this .
i will look into that tomorrow ...but great day indeed !

dalekmoore2007 28th May 2022 2:59 am

Re: Modeline experiments
 
After a few more go's every thing looks good i think also because i have different brand monitors that's a factor that was stuffing me up a bit pretty much going to mark the vga plugs to the monitors and in and out of the graphics vga plug sockets that will make life easier if i have to unplug this and put it back together.
Now what works and what doesn't as far as modelines i have tried
All your mode lines Graham you kindly posted work great no problems, also below is the list off my modeline menu and some others i found scattered on this forum they work too.
Modeline "664x377_25 10.1kHz 50.0Hz" 8.100 664 680 752 800 377 379 385 405 interlace -hsync -vsync
Modeline "560x220_25 6.0kHz 25.0Hz" 3.750 560 568 584 624 220 221 233 240 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "656x383_25 11.0kHz 50.0Hz" 8.820 656 665 744 800 383 384 392 441 interlace -hsync +vsync
Modeline "640x540_25 15.6kHz 50.0Hz" 13.620 640 694 758 872 540 556 562 625 interlace -hsync -vsync
Modeline "570x456_30 15.7kHz 59.9Hz" 12.080 570 621 678 768 456 472 478 525 interlace -hsync -vsync
Modeline "1500x580_25 15.6kHz 50.0Hz" 26.880 1500 1508 1605 1720 580 582 596 625 interlace -hsync -vsync
Modeline "1500x100_25 2.7kHz 25.0Hz" 8.020 1500 2828 2938 2999 100 103 105 107 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "1152x738_25 20.5kHz 50.0Hz" 29.320 1152 1168 1240 1432 738 744 745 819 interlace -hsync +vsync
I had trouble having 120 line in this list at first but works after pasteing the mode line after the others were rebooted to work ,thats one of Peter Scotts
Modeline "1500x100_25 3.0kHz" 8.840 1500 2828 2938 2948 100 105 110 120 -hsync -vsync
Now what i also wanted but doesn't work so far i am interested in can't seem to get this one going if any one see's a mistake in the modeline
Modeline "900x180_25 4.5kHz 25.0Hz" 4.050 664 728 784 900 170 172 176 180 -hsync -vsync
There are others but pretty much same line frame rates with different modeline settings
Testing the results on the scope
as in list above
Line H V
405 10.12khz 50hz
240 12.82khz 53.44 hz
441 11.04khz 50hz
625 15.65khz 50hz
525 15.70khz 59.79hz
625 1500x580........15.60khz 49.92hz
107 2.674khz 25hz
819 20.52khz 25hz
120 2.677khz 25hz

Like 180 line going if any one can help

dalekmoore2007 28th May 2022 3:52 am

Re: Modeline experiments
 
3 Attachment(s)
This was really a 2 part project first get the modeline and the old pc to output at least 405 line next comes to the monitor construction half and idea so far:-)

rambo1152 28th May 2022 6:56 pm

Re: Modeline experiments
 
4 Attachment(s)
I see you have built Peter's monostable circuit.
This is my effort. I've used three pots instead of fixed resistors for the RGB.

Attachment 257930

This shows what we are trying to add, eight "Broad Pulses" at half-line rate.

Attachment 257935

And here's what I got in practice after careful adjustment of the timing.
Even field.

Attachment 257931

And odd field.

Attachment 257932

Without this circuit in place there is no interlace apparent on my old Cossor 916, although my other set a Sony 9-90UB seems to manage without it, although I may be being fooled by its smaller screen size.

dalekmoore2007 28th May 2022 9:58 pm

Re: Modeline experiments
 
5 Attachment(s)
Thanks Graham for the information on adjusting the video signal....
Its some thing i will also do when i get closer to testing the monitor ,still in the concept stage getting parts together so we don't have any sets to test on i will have to construct one below what 405 line was like for us .
In Australia we only had experimental 405 in Melbourne in the late 40s
FIRST ALL-ELECTRONIC TELEVISION CHAIN TO REACH AUSTRALIA was this British Pye 405-line closed circuit outfit at the end of 1948. Astor Radio (Radio Corp of Australia) and Pye toured with public demonstrations of this outfit around agricultural shows in various parts of Australia. It was a blatant attempt to pressure the Australian government into the usage of the British 405-line system. The Chifley Government initially indicated a desire to set up a TV broadcasting system along BBC lines - ie., a national and non-commercial network only. When Chifley was displaced by Menzies, the whole subject was reconsidered, and an expert panel appointed to tour the world seeking suitable Australian TV broadcasting standards decided on the 625 line system. This was used until the end of analog transmissions in this country. Menzies also insisted on a parallel opening of commercial TV stations after 1956 - the system we still enjoy. The photos are from the collection of the State Library of Victoria.

dalekmoore2007 28th May 2022 10:10 pm

Re: Modeline experiments
 
2 Attachment(s)
As mentioned i have no choice but to construct a monitor if i want view any thing apart from 625 525 line ,i do have a monitor that might do 405 badly but rather build one where i hope to make it multi system and view most of those early television systems i can now output to it .
i have picked a tube i have handy not to big nice size for this ,its a 14SX3Y4 5.5inch black and white CRT having 12.6V 75mA heater with tests ok on a conductivity and voltage test .
Data for most CRTS like this are hard to come by but there are scraps of information gold
Filament voltage : 12V Filament current :75mA
Typical operation:
Final anode : 8KV
Vg2 : 100V there also have 300V version
Vg1 : -35V +/- 10V
some one in Poland who experimented with one mentioned the below
On the focus grid i remember the focus grid is connect to ground.. This are tetrode electron gun the final voltage 8KV will work well at lower voltage just the brightness will decrease.
So more than likely start on the ramp oscillators so they can be synced and deflection amplifiers i will not light the tube till i have at least one deflection amplifier feeding the yoke.

dalekmoore2007 31st May 2022 8:16 am

Re: Modeline experiments
 
Came across this mode line calculator
https://www.epanorama.net/faq/vga2rgb/calc.html

dalekmoore2007 5th Jun 2022 8:01 am

Re: Modeline experiments
 
3 Attachment(s)
The sync separator ramp generators and deflection amplifier's finished need for look into the fly back transformer next about 8kv for his tube

murphyv310 12th Jun 2022 4:51 pm

Re: Modeline experiments
 
Looking good.
Have been following this and keep checking in.

dalekmoore2007 13th Jun 2022 12:41 pm

Re: Modeline experiments
 
4 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by murphyv310 (Post 1477339)
Looking good.
Have been following this and keep checking in.

I have been doing the build on the NBTV forum but did mean to update here , i have finished the power supply the eht supply ramp generators deflection amplifier vertical deflection shown in and out of the power transistors to the yoke.
I will keep posting as construction go's on ,got to power up the crt soon


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