Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Recently Darryl has said that it would be possible to design a standards converter for a 30 (or 32) line televisor for around £100.

I, like many other forum members, have bought one of the new "Baird Televisors" here:

http://www.mutr.co.uk/prodDetail.aspx?prodID=1420

The general opinion on these new televisors is that they are 32 lines.

Would it be possible to ask Darryl to consider making sucha converter avialable? I personally would very much like one to enable me to use the set to watch current over-the-air transmissions on it.

I did also wonder if it would be worth asking if it is possible to have a dual-standard converter, to cover both 30 and 32 lines, so that it will allow the new Televisor to be used, but would also be suitable for an original Baird 30-line Televisor shoukd one surface, or should a 30-line version be manufactured again?

Perhaps you may be able to comment here Darryl? Also, perhaps anyone else interested could also comment?

All the best,

Peter.

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Hi Peter,
I have investigated creating a dedicated converter for this based on the low cost design. Doing some preliminary work, it would cost $205 including shipping (about £105 right now with the dollar so low). It would be capable of PAL/NTSC input and 30 Baird/32 NBTV output. I would have the options for positive or negative polarity output and gamma correction. I would remove all the audio and RF circuitry from the existing design. I could also include the ability to do the framing through a push button like I do on the Multi-Standard which makes framing the image much easier.
Unfortunately there have been a few postings about this on the NBTV site and elsewhere with no feedback to date, so I haven't taken it any farther. If there is sufficient interest in such a device, I would be happy to make them. Since they would need to be a special build from the regular low cost converter, I would have to get a fair idea of how many to make. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Darryl

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Darryl,

In the full knowledge I would probably be your only customer I'll throw this request into the pot. It would have to be straightforward for you to include though.

What about 30-line colour, supplied in simple R, G, B with a separate feed of syncs?

Getting rather tired of the current programme content consisting of Mickey Mouse, Noddy - and a 'Daz' packet for the commercial!

Happy Christmas ;D

Steve

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Unless I've overlooked something I guess it would be possible to reprogram an exisiting converter to do 30/32 line output. The sound and modulator stuff would be redundant but this really doesn't matter. Whether there would be enough Xilinx capacity to make it switchable 405 and 30 is another matter.

There's also the not insignificant matter of doing the design work.

Darryl's original multistandard converter can do both 30 and 32 line "out of the box" but it's a lot more expensive.

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Hi Darryl,

I would definitely be interested in a 30/32 line converter. Hopefully there will be enough interest from others to make this project viable.

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Hello Darryl,

Many thanks for your reply.

I would be VERY interested in a 30/32 line standards converter as soon as one could be made available. The cost is fine, are you in a position to take any orders now by any chance? You can certainly put my name down for one please.

Hopefully others interested will also reply so that you can see how many would be viable.

Thanks for your help with this.

Peter.

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Hi Steve,
I had a suspicion this issue would come up :-) I have followed your progress with 32 line color and the great results you have achieved. I am adding mechanical color support right now as a modification to a Multi-Standard unit for a project Steve McVoy is working on for his museum. He obtained a 60 line mirror screw assembly, and wants to run it in color. You can follow the progress on his web site.
That being said, I was able to do this because the Multi-Standard unit has an auxiliary port on it that I was able to add a daughter card with a multi-channel serial DAC. Even though these parts are not particularly fast, this one runs up to 30MHz which is fast enough for mechanical color. Unfortunately the existing low cost converter has no such provision and only contains a single DAC channel. A low cost unit could be designed with three DAC channels, but it would be a new design.

What I would propose for this device is the existing low cost converter with the audio and RF sections removed. This would leave the PAL/NTSC video input, the converted line level output, and the power jack. It would support both Baird 30 and NBTV 32 in the same unit. Since the NBTV standard provides full syncs, and the Baird standard provides black spaces between each line, no dedicated sync output would be needed.

Jeff is correct that an existing low cost unit could be reprogrammed to support this proposed new 30/32 firmware. I don't think it would be possible to support 30/32 and a regular standard like 405 in one firmware set do to limitations of resources in the fpga. This could be solved with a larger fpga part, but that would add cost.

Darryl

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

This sounds like great news Darryl. I'll look forward to hearing how things develop.

Thanks for your help with this.

Peter.

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

If Kat is following this thread, then her approach using a PC might be very relevant. I reckon you would use the audio output of a sound card rather than the video output of a graphics card.

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

... sound's like a live video version of Gary Millard's AVI2WAV (or its younger colour sibling). I wonder how feasible that would be.

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

One of my projects for the new year is to see how slow the VGA port will go, but I suspect a lower limit will be around 180 lines. The other problem is the scanning direction - 30 and 32 go bottom right to top left in vertical stripes, "normal" TV goes top left to bottom right in horizontal stripes....... Still, I'll settle for standing the Televisor on end:-D (and watching in a mirror)

Jim.

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

This is a very interesting standard that appears to interleave the color information into a single video channel. If this is the case, this would be possible to include in a converter.

Steve, I know you asked about full three channel color, but could this work for you?

Does anyone know the details of this format. I searched, but came up with very little information about it.

Darryl

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Hi,
I am and that's what I was thinking of... 8-)

I've thought about doing live conversion. It's definitely possible, but I'm wondering if there's much value in it, to be honest. Given the aspect ratio and greatly reduced resolution, my idea was to write software for off-line conversion.

The idea is this. You load up a movie file to convert, then program a "pan and zoom track" alongside it as the movie progresses. Once you're happy with the framing of the movie, you export the movie as a multi-channel audio file containing sound and picture.

A 5.1 sound card has 6 audio channels; so it'd be possible to store and output R, G, B; a sync signal and stereo audio if needed...

Doing this will mean writing software from scratch. The MythTV-based FotH TV System uses software which already exists and was already doing almost what was required, so didn't take a lot of work.

It's something which might happen in time. It's yet another interesting thing on my list of things to play around with; but I haven't built or acquired a mechanical television set yet and I have many other projects on the go.

Cheers, Kat

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Not at present, since my system has always gone on its own merry way and blithely ignored NBTVA standards. For one thing I'd need to have new 32-line discs laser cut - my current system is 30-line with a square picture (which I personally prefer). However, there's no reason why I couldn't convert the system to run from NBTVA colour in future.

There doesn't seem to be much information published at present about the new R-B NBTV colour encoding standard. I can only suggest you try emailing Klaas Robers or Vic Brown through the email links on the NBTVA pages.

Steve

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Thanks Steve. I missed that your sets have been the original 30 line standard and not the NBTV 32 line. The R-B NBTV system sounds interesting, but there is no substitute for full 3 channel color as you have done. This is what we're working on for the 60 line mirror screw project.

Darryl

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Darryl, I'm having trouble locating this interesting-sounding project on Steve McVoy's site. Do you have a direct URL by any chance?

Thanks!

Steve

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Sure thing Steve. The main page is here: http://www.earlytelevision.org/color...ew.html#12-21a

I am very anxious to see what kind of results Steve M. gets from this project. The 30 line mirror screw sets I've seen operating are very impressive.

Darryl

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Actually that last link I gave takes you somehwere to the middle of the page. The link for the start of the page is: http://www.earlytelevision.org/color_mirror_screw.html

Darryl

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Thanks Darryl, this is most interesting. I've got to be careful not to veer off-topic for this thread now, so I'll be ultra-brief!

I'd have probably not tried to persuade light from LEDs into optical fibres like Steve McVoy did, but would have tried a different approach, namely having a stack of narrow-angle ultra-brights some distance behind a vertical slit (probably bearing a perspex/frosted 'mixing rod') at the end of a light box, with the LEDs adjusted to beam toward the slit and mixing there. I would have thought this would be more efficient and give a brighter picture. It's a variation on the arrangement I currently use.

Steve

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

I can only speak for myself here, but I would personally like a real-time standards converter to allow me to view over-the-air transmissions on 30-lines, rather than only being able to view PC converted footage.

Peter.

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Steve - I'd like some more details of the arrangement you use for your mechanical light source, and in particular of the perspex/frosted 'mixing rod'. It may well be a better solution than the fiber optic one.

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Steve,

I'll go start a new thread dealing with this separate topic.... subject to the moderators' approval of course.:)

Steve

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Fine with me (in a new thread). :)

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

I just ran out of low cost convertors and am starting a new build in the next few days. I have decided to create firmware for the 30/32 line output discussed in this thread. Since this is a special build of the convertor (mostly parts left off) I don't want to build more of them than there is interest for. If interested people could PM me, I can get an idea for how many I should make. I estimate they will be available sometime in late January.

Darryl

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

That's great news Darryl, I've just sent you a PM.

Peter.

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Does anyone know of a program like that for linux? :)

ljones

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

I finally got around to finishing this project and would like to get an idea of how many I need to make since I will be ordering parts shortly. This single converter supports PAL and NTSC inputs and provides a selectable 30/12.5p Baird and 32/12.5p NBTV output. It also supports selectable output inversion to match the polarity of your lamp driver, and selectable output gamma correction. The cost is $210 including shipping and insurance to North America and Western Europe.

Darryl

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Please put me down for one Darryl. Thanks for making these available.

Peter.

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Me too, please!

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Just a note that these converters are built and ready to go. I uploaded a first draft user manual to the web site.

Darryl

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Hi Darryl, please make a link to the new web site.
My old link does not work any more, thanks.

Kind regards,
Darius

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Try this: http://converter.home.comcast.net/

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

That's great news Darryl, thanks for making these available. I've sent you a PM.

All the best,

Peter.

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Thanks Jeffrey, I updated it in my favorites list.

Kind regards,
Darius

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Hi Darius,
That is the correct new address Jeff pointed to. Actually the old one got pulled just yesterday.

Darryl

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Delighted to report that my 30/32 line standards converter arrived this morning. I'm very grateful to Darryl for making this converter available.

I haven't tried it out yet though, as I'm not sure what is required in terms of converting the composite video output into a signal that is suitable for a mechanical TV such as the one described in the thread below. I don't have any significant electronic design skills, it's unlikely I'll be able to come up with a solution on my own.

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=13264

I do have one of these, but will later construct something larger for easier viewing. For this reason, I have recently subscribed to the Narrow Bandwidth Television Association.

Thoughts of others? The technical specification can be found here:

http://converter.home.comcast.net/Si...Manual_1.0.pdf

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Hi Ian,
I don't have one of the new Televisors here to try, but it looks like you should be able to connect the output of the converter directly to the input of the televisor.
I met Denis Asseman at Steve McVoy's connvention this past weekend, and he had one of these kit's with him, but I didn't bring a converter as I didn't know he would be there or I would have given it a go :-(

Darryl

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Hi Darryl,

Thank you for your response. I've just tried it out with a direct connection as suggested and it works perfectly.

I'm really pleased and I'd like to thank you once again for your efforts in producing this excellent converter.

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Hi Ian,
Thanks for verifying this. It looked like it should work this way, but you never know until you try it.

Darryl

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

I have to say how very impressed I am with the converter's performance.

I had tried out 32-line video from a CD player and also from the soundcard of my PC, I had not been able to get a decent stable picture using either source and had concluded that the only decent picture I was going to get was of the in-built Testcard.

How wrong I was!! I connected up the converter to the Sky box, and fed the audio signal in to the near-by Ekco AC86 radio, turned on the radio for sound and the Televisor for vision. It just so happend that "The Weakest Link" was on and I was absolutely amazed at the picture quality on the little Televisor. Considering that the picture is 32 lines you can pick out a lof of information, and, even more surprisingly, the picture remains stable during scene changes, which was something I didn't expect. You cna make out walking, sets and faces, in fact, when you get a close up of someone you can easily recognise them.

I'm guessing that the signal from the CD player and the PC soundcard were both too compressed? The picture from the converter though really is stunning. This has really given me a totally different outlook on the original BBC 30-line transmissions, I can now see just how amazed people must have been when they say these pictures in their own homes. True, it would now be considered "Low Definition", but at 32 lines you can see much more than you would imagine.

Thank you Darryl for the hard work you put in so that we can watch live television on 30 and 32 lines.

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

I wonder if the Aurora works better because the output is DC coupled. Unlike normal audio the 30/32 line video signal has a substantial DC component which will be lost on the average AC coupled output.

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

I have no idea, but the picture obtained from it far exceeds my expectations, it really is amazing. I just wish I could get a successful off-screen photograph which, so far, I have been unable to do.

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

Hi Peter,
Glad it's working out well for you. Of course this is only representative of what would have been possible in the early days. With the converter we are feeding a digitally generated signal directly to the Televisor. Originally we would have had to contend with such things as signal fade, bandwidth limitations, and so on.
I agree with Jeff that the DC coupled output from the converter is most likely what's making the output more stable than that from an audio source. Most audio sources are AC coupled, so the black level, and even the sync pulses will change depending on the scene. This is why you may have lost sync on scene changes before.
All this means the image with the converter is as good as you could have obtained under ideal conditions back in the 20's and 30's, and it certainly makes for an enjoyable watching experience today!

Darryl

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

It certainly does make for a very enjoyable watching experience Darryl, the Televisor has exceeded all my expectations, I'm just amazed at how much information is present using 32 lines!

Re: Request for a 32 (and if possible a 30) line standards converter.
 

I don't think I could justify that kind of amount plus import duty for 40 quid MUTR kit but could someone provide me a photo of live tv from this converter on whatever NBTV set they have, just for fun?

Cheers