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-   -   Electric clocks running slow warning (https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=144555)

Julesomega 7th Mar 2018 11:20 am

Electric clocks running slow warning
 
1 Attachment(s)
Brief news item on R4 just now says the recent high demand for power has resulted in electric clocks running slow. I had wondered why my 'digital alarm clock' radio was over a minute slow last week. So, will I have to reset it again when things catch up?

Nickthedentist 7th Mar 2018 11:23 am

Re: Electric clocks running slow warning
 
How interesting.

I thought that the number of cycles per day was maintained for this very reason - we discussed this here in the last few months.

I tend to set mine when the clocks change, i.e. twice a year, and have to say that they all seem to be "slow" recently.

Nick.

paulsherwin 7th Mar 2018 11:24 am

Re: Electric clocks running slow warning
 
I noticed that my synchronous clocks have lost a minute or so over the last few weeks. I get the impression that the frequency standards aren't being adhered to as strictly as they once were, though the grid frequency has always fallen when generating capacity is getting tight.

Hybrid tellies 7th Mar 2018 11:47 am

Re: Electric clocks running slow warning
 
This morning I noticed my radio alarm was running 3 minutes slow. Its a 25 year old Panasonic which has always been very accurate and I always thought it used a quartz oscillator but it after seeing this topic it must be synced to the mains.

dominicbeesley 7th Mar 2018 12:19 pm

Re: Electric clocks running slow warning
 
Is this a nationwide thing? Has the voltage also been cut?

We had a (non weather related) power cut a week and a half ago and since then my voltage has been lower than usual.

Here, it's usually around 245V during the day. My computer UPS kicks in around 217V and has been doing so for about 50% of the time (mostly in the evening). Some days it has been as low as 197V! I keep meaning to ring Northern Power (or whoever is responsible) and complain but I really don't have the patience or time to spend arguing with somebody.

Voltage is around 230-233V now, the highest I've noticed since the cut

My Decca Bradford has refused to sync since the low voltage, I'm glad I heard the UPS or I would have started tweaking.

I need to get my multi meter out and test here and other houses locally to see if this is a problem isolated to my house or the whole town or the whole UK?

D

bluepilot 7th Mar 2018 12:25 pm

Re: Electric clocks running slow warning
 
A report I read said the mains had been averaging 49.996Hz since the beginning of the year which I calculate means around 7 minutes slow since Jan 1st. I wondered why the cooker and microwave were running slow and that explains it. Supposedly they will be trying to increase the frequency to compensate, so everyone who has reset their clocks in the meantime will find them seven minutes fast fairly soon.

Nuvistor 7th Mar 2018 12:28 pm

Re: Electric clocks running slow warning
 
I would have thought if the Frequency was reduced it would be over the grid, I understand they are all in sync. When starting up a generator they can only bring it online with the grid when the frequency is matched or it can cause problems. That may be an understatement.

Mike Phelan 7th Mar 2018 12:34 pm

Re: Electric clocks running slow warning
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by paulsherwin (Post 1023661)
I noticed that my synchronous clocks have lost a minute or so over the last few weeks. I get the impression that the frequency standards aren't being adhered to as strictly as they once were, though the grid frequency has always fallen when generating capacity is getting tight.

That's the same here, Paul. Thank goodness I have a few proper clocks which are spring or weight driven. Our synchronous clocks will generally run OK even if the voltage falls to 150 but it is the frequency which has been a bit low here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julesomega (Post 1023656)
Brief news item on R4 just now says the recent high demand for power has resulted in electric clocks running slow. I had wondered why my 'digital alarm clock' radio was over a minute slow last week. So, will I have to reset it again when things catch up?

If it's a radio controlled one, no. There again, if it is than it won't require altering for spring and autumn changes.
If it's not radio controlled then you will have to change it.

Nymrod121 7th Mar 2018 12:49 pm

Re: Electric clocks running slow warning
 
I have my workshop DAB radio set (terrybull - take a bow :) ) to display time; every so often I make a point of (visually copying to/pasting from) my Casio wristwatch across to our other domestic, non-mains/off-air referenced clocks.

Best wishes
Guy

turretslug 7th Mar 2018 12:58 pm

Re: Electric clocks running slow warning
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bluepilot (Post 1023680)
A report I read said the mains had been averaging 49.996Hz since the beginning of the year which I calculate means around 7 minutes slow since Jan 1st. I wondered why the cooker and microwave were running slow and that explains it. Supposedly they will be trying to increase the frequency to compensate, so everyone who has reset their clocks in the meantime will find them seven minutes fast fairly soon.

Curious that it's continent-wide- I was under the impression that under-sea links would be DC wherever possible and converted to suit, and thus not necessarily mandatorily synchronous. I appreciate that my understanding may be far simpler than the actuality, though!

I'd noticed that the super-annuated bedside VFD clock was losing somewhat recently, too- I'm used to +- 30 seconds or thereabouts deviation but it's lost far more than that currently.

paulsherwin 7th Mar 2018 1:02 pm

Re: Electric clocks running slow warning
 
The international links are indeed DC, and the UK grid isn't synchronized with Europe. The UK grid is normally fully synchronized but can split under rare fault conditions.

I wonder if the reduced frequency stability is something to do with the increased reliance on wind power.

dominicbeesley 7th Mar 2018 1:05 pm

Re: Electric clocks running slow warning
 
I'm back down to 219V now! I suspect this may be a local phenomenon

Nickthedentist 7th Mar 2018 1:12 pm

Re: Electric clocks running slow warning
 
This is frustrating. Another old technology that's becoming less usable.

I used to rely on my synchronous clocks for telling me exactly the right time; in practice, they seem more reliable than my MSF clocks which tend to do odd things if their batteries are weak, the signal is weaked or swamped by SMPS hash etc.

Glowing Bits! 7th Mar 2018 1:26 pm

Re: Electric clocks running slow warning
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dominicbeesley (Post 1023699)
I'm back down to 219V now! I suspect this may be a local phenomenon

You're lucky, a few months back the power went off completely for about 10 seconds before returning on around 170v!
One quick call to Scottish Power eventually sorted things out, albeit around 3 hours later.
If your power stays as low as it is, contact your electric provider before it causes any damage to anything electrical.
I can't say I've noticed the garage clock running slowly but will check it after to see what it's doing.

Nymrod121 7th Mar 2018 1:26 pm

Re: Electric clocks running slow warning
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuvistor (Post 1023683)
I would have thought if the Frequency was reduced it would be over the grid, I understand they are all in sync. When starting up a generator they can only bring it online with the grid when the frequency is matched or it can cause problems. That may be an understatement.

The stand-by diesel sets at Holme Moss (Paxman V6?/8?, 415v, 75kVA) had to be manually sync'd to each other then the incoming supply (if a planned maimtenance break) before tripping the 11kV incomer/bus section oil-circuit breakers. There were three sets and it had to be 'got right' on the Synchroscope - any discrepancy and the relevant set's ACB would trip ... followed by remedial action which included the duty Senior Tx Eng promptly adminstering a firm kick up the TE's backside :)
Guy

G8HQP Dave 7th Mar 2018 1:52 pm

Re: Electric clocks running slow warning
 
Modern generation of all types is less able to modulate (vary its output as required) than a coal/oil-fired steam turbine. This may be partly for technical reasons, and partly for efficiency/economic/business reasons. Hence more variation in voltage and frequency is to be expected. Peak demand now gets much closer to peak supply, taking into account that some generation comes and goes when it pleases (e.g. wind, solar). There is also the fact that nobody is now responsible for keeping the lights on; market suppliers can game the rules to maximise profits rather than minimise disruption. A sustained period of bad weather pushes the system to the edge, where demand has to be reduced instead of generation increased.

Hartley118 7th Mar 2018 1:53 pm

Re: Electric clocks running slow warning
 
Ah, so that's the reason why my synchronous clocks are slow. I've been away for a few weeks and have been surprised by a puzzling discrepancy of some 2 minutes on my return.

It reminds me of the power problems back in the 1940s. All of our clocks at home at that time were synchronous and I recall asking my father why they were sometimes 5 minute slow. He explained that it was a power supply problem (ISTR to do with coal shortages). I also seem to recall that since the 1950s synchronous clocks have been very reliable timekeepers to within around 30 seconds and are corrected by National Grid over each 24 hour period, so this long-term low frequency problem is something new.

The press release blaming it on Continental Europe just won't wash. As Paul has indicated, our Grid isn't synchronized with the European system. There's been some other problem which we're not hearing about.

Do we have a Forum member who knows the facts?

Martin

bluepilot 7th Mar 2018 2:04 pm

Re: Electric clocks running slow warning
 
This is the latest explanation I saw for the problems on the continent:
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/news/wirt...0307-99-376293
Which Google will translate for you here:
https://translate.google.fr/translat...-text=&act=url
Looks like those pesky Serbs are causing the problem.
I don't know whose fault it is in the UK but it's interesting that two grids have the same problem.

broadgage 7th Mar 2018 2:28 pm

Re: Electric clocks running slow warning
 
My UPS gave the "mains out of tolerance" alarm an hour or so ago. Presumably due to low line volts.
The frequency looks OK now, about 50.1 cycles probably deliberately a little high to compensate for low frequency earlier.

The Philpott 7th Mar 2018 2:50 pm

Re: Electric clocks running slow warning
 
When voltage is far too low fridge/freezer compressors are certainly a concern. They are after all a little engine and i would be concerned about there not being enough grunt for the initial start-up. I am back up to 250v now, almost as high as xmas 12th night.


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