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French polishing for beginners.
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Mods please be gentle with me.
Hi, Some 30 years ago I made a veneered sideboard and hoped to finish it with French polish (shellac). I bought a book entitled Staining and Polishing by the author Charles H. Hayward. The author went into great detail outlining each stage in French polishing; these being Staining, Filling-in,Fadding,Colouring,Coating,Bodying and finishing off using one of three methods; Stiffing, Spiriting and Acid finish. After reading the book and now being terrified of French polishing; I finished the sideboard using varnish. The book was put away until about six years ago when I became interested in radio and in particular needing to French polish radio cabinets. Over the last six years I’ve successfully French polished in excess of twenty wooden radio cabinets and gained more confidence with each; refining my method and technique until present when I can go into my workshop and can produce a decent French polish job whilst working in a very confined space and enduring a black hole called a Yorkshire winter making everything gloomy. I bought a Bush SW45 radio a few years ago and at the time thought it to be the ugliest set I had ever seen; generally it was in decent condition and the cabinet finish was quite good but it looked very somber indeed not aided by its design and I thought had I not bought it the set would have been possibly stripped for its valves with the remainder going to landfill. The cabinet is finished in veneers of Australian Walnut with dark bands of Macassar Ebony. Everything about it looked dull even after “T” cutting so I decided to use this set as a donor for this thread. My method of French polishing involves only three stages having been reduced to the very basic possible. Applying initial polish coats with a brush; flatting and finishing with the traditional French polishing rubber. The set was carefully taken apart leaving the bare cabinet which was stripped of its original finish using a very sharp cabinet scraper; repairs were carried out and both sides of the cabinet stained with Blackfriar Wood Dye Walnut stain to balance the colour better; the front and top panels left unstained. I was somewhat disappointed after scraping expecting to see better contrast between the veneers and the scraping was difficult because the veneers although dead actually felt dead and it was like scraping charcoal as I removed a thin layer hoping to reveal better colour below; dust was produced rather than shavings and this is the only cabinet out of many to respond in this manner. After a good flatting all over with 600 grit abrasive paper working with the grain; both sides were stained but not the front or top; then once the stain had completely dried the whole cabinet was given a coat of RAW LINSEED oil to bring out the colour and it made a tremendous difference. The excess oil was removed with clean cloth and the cabinet was allowed to completely dry in a warm place for a few days. Oily rags must never be piled as they can self ignite. French polishing takes a lot of time and each stage must not be rushed or failure is sure to follow; I estimated three weeks for this job. I mixed up a new batch of Button Shellac and even this proved difficult; in the past I’ve used flaked shellac but this shellac was bought from eBay and was supplied like large buttons in the form of flat discs which I broke into smaller pieces using a hammer. A clean jam jar was filled to about a third with the shellac and two thirds of methylated spirit was poured in; the jar top being secured. This shellac took over a week to dissolve even though I repeatedly shook the jar. The bench was wiped clean as was the cabinet; the shellac hadn’t fully dissolved but not wanting to wait any longer I applied two very heavy coats of shellac onto the cabinet using an artists No.2 fan brush allowing the first coat to dry for an hour; the cabinet was then left overnight. Like the scraping the shellac didn’t want to behave, as I looked at it the following morning I couldn’t believe how bad it looked; the shellac was full of what appeared to be grit and had gone on leaving tramlines that Mallard could have run on. At least the grain was now filled. Now for the first very important point and it’s written in stone. Any cabinet with stain added must be treated with the utmost respect because if stain suffers any damage whatsoever it is extremely hard to put right; I can’t stress this enough. With this in mind I used 600 grit abrasive paper and spent ages flatting the shellac but here is a tip that is just brilliant which I picked up a while ago; I use TALCUM POWDER as a lubricant whilst flatting; it smells nice and makes the abrasive paper last virtually forever; the powder prevents the abrasive grit becoming coated with shellac which in turn would leave indentations in the form of shallow lines that are difficult to remove. The paper soon loses the initial “bite” and settles down but much care is needed at this stage to prevent cutting through the shellac at edges or openings such as around the knob or grille holes; a careless swipe over a corner is enough to leave a very light coloured line as the bare veneer is exposed and once this happens it is extremely difficult to rectify. The shellac dust mixes with the talcum powder and I keep wiping it with my free hand to watch progress, I find adding a second piece of abrasive paper inside the first gives a bit more control and prevent the paper folding up. Finger nails are a real hazard whilst flatting and need to be cut short. As flatting progresses the shellac will start to look dull with lines of gloss becoming very clear; these lines are where the shellac has settled into the grain filling the grain; it’s important at this stage to ensure there is enough thickness of shellac to allow the flatting to remove these lines leaving the entire surface feeling very smooth and looking dull; if not I dust off completely and add more brush coats of shellac; under no circumstances must I break through to the stain. A lot of patience is called for because this work cannot be rushed and this flatting needs to be done correctly. With many people made homeless due to flooding the weather remained wet and very dark; in my workshop with a single strip light I carried on best as I could and finally dusted the cabinet off and made a start at applying the shellac using a traditional French polishing rubber made of skin wadding inner and a clean soft cotton cloth outer covering. For rubber making instructions please visit; http://www.aw-antiques-collectibles....-polishing.php Standard cotton wool is no good for use in a rubber and obtaining the correct skin wadding was virtually impossible for me at first; a supplier is given later. The rubber covering cloth is critical if good results are to be expected. I avoid all cloth that is hard or shiny; the cloth needs to be something like a worn out men’s hanky; one that is soft: threadbare and very thin. Some use Tee shirt material but I find it has too much “give” for my liking and tends to pucker up whereas the sole of the rubber has to remain smooth and flat at all times. Worn out cotton bed sheets can also be used. I always secure two pages of an old TV times to the bench top with masking tape near where I’m working on the cabinet; this gives me a clean working area where I charge the rubber with shellac and before using the rubber on the cabinet it is important to press the sole of the rubber onto the paper; this is a good test to see if the rubber is charged correctly; if too wet shellac will ooze out and if too dry it won’t leave a mark. I find it just right when the paper is wet but not having any ridges of polish showing; this comes quickly with a bit of practice and must be done to distribute the polish within the rubber every time the rubber is freshly charged. On no account must I use a rubber that is too wet in the hope of speeding up the job. I also have four clean jam jars on the bench; one for meths to clean the brush; one for the polishing rubber keeping it airtight; one for thick shellac and one for thinned shellac. I use Latex gloves bought from Poundland for hand protection because dried shellac takes about a week to remove otherwise. With a correctly charged rubber and the cabinet flatted and dusted off I apply the shellac using circular movements of approximately 3” diameter doing one panel at a time; as the first panel is covered I move onto the second panel working around the cabinet; as the last panel is done the first is dry and I can repeat this many times until the surface starts to feel a bit tacky which is the warning sign to stop and let the shellac dry for an hour or so. As the rubber becomes depleted of shellac more is added to the wadding removing the outer cotton cloth each time and testing on the paper; the rubber must never be dipped into shellac but must be charged correctly. The rubber must be kept moving at all times whilst in contact and the slightest delay can result in either the rubber sticking or tearing up the previously applied shellac; if this happens and it does for a beginner; leave well alone for an hour then carry on as before. Trying too hard to build up shellac thickness quickly by spending too much time on a panel actually works the opposite way as polish tends to get removed rather than added. If any trim or mouldings stand proud of the general surface of the veneer these cause other difficulties as a rubber doesn’t like to be forced into internal corners; this cabinet has two wooden bars running across the grille and also the dial opening trim stands proud; both these prevented clean strokes of the rubber; the narrow bit of veneer between the end of the bars and the dial opening was the worst and from previous experience I added a good thickness of polish here whilst brushing; all I needed to do was to ensure a layer of shellac was quickly added watching out for runs or overlapping tide marks and get out of there as fast as possible before the surface became tacky. Casual strokes of the rubber are used not too fast and not too slow. More shellac is added to the cabinet still using circular movements building up the thickness and when I’m happy with the result thin the shellac with meths making it quite thin and re-charge the rubber. Now I use straight strokes of the rubber using a motion just like a plane landing and taking off; I never start a stroke at the edge of a panel as this would result in the edge acting like a scraper resulting in runs which are unseen onto adjacent panels; if this happens and it did at first the best thing to do is leave the runs well alone to harden then continue adding shellac over them because to panic and remove them too soon using abrasive paper will only make matters worse; they will still need to be removed but only when there is a good surrounding thickness of shellac. Panels are worked both ways using straight strokes and eventually I start to see the finish improving as the circular layers of shellac become less obvious. On this cabinet though it was having none of it and responded with a surface full of little bumps and tiny bits of debris embedded in it. This was new to me and most frustrating as I take a lot of care but due to the inadequate workshop lighting I was feeling my way rather than seeing it so I needed to try something different? I let the shellac completely harden overnight and the following day I spent over six hours flatting using Talcum powder and 1200 grit wet or dry abrasive paper; when I finally finished the cabinet was perfectly smooth and had a mat finish all over; by now I was in some pain as my arms ached and in bed I couldn’t sleep as my neck and shoulders hurt so much from the amount of effort expended on the marathon flatting session. So far nothing had gone right and the cabinet just tested my patience to the limit. The following day I walked away from it and made myself busy collecting leaves and tidying up outside during a dry spell; I felt worn out and couldn’t face another day using my arms applying shellac. Normally I enjoy French polishing even when things don’t quite go as planned but this job was unlike any of the other cabinets I had completed and it was playing games with me. A day away from the job worked wonders; the next session I was eager and more determined than ever to get this cabinet looking like I wanted it to look. I double checked it was well dusted off and changed the outer cloth on the rubber; the rubber was freshly charged with thinned shellac and tested on the paper and right from the very first stroke I knew the cabinet had finally shaken hands with me and made friends. During the day I kept popping into the workshop and applying more layers of shellac using the rubber allowing each layer to dry for an hour or so then suddenly it hit me; I was done; the cabinet was again left overnight for the shellac to dry. I never use linseed oil to lubricate the rubber as this causes more problems than it solves due to the fact the oil needs removing later and if trapped can appear through the surface at a later date. For a beginner to French polishing I would suggest selecting a cabinet with flat surfaces allowing full access for rubber strokes; purchase ready mixed polish and don’t rush. To avoid all the frustrations and wasted time which I spent trying to find materials especially the skin wadding may I suggest visiting http://www.restoration-materials.co.uk/ This company has all the hard to find finishing materials under one roof and is like a sweet shop to a child. The re-finishing of this Bush couldn’t have gone worse, it refused to be scraped like other cabinets; mixing the polish was a disaster; brushing the polish gave extremely poor results; flatting for six hours nearly killed me, the lighting was inadequate; the weather was terrible and very dark; bench space was cramped; our central heating boiler was out of action for the best part of a week; sales people kept breaking me off; telephone calls from people like British Gas at Sheffield wanting to sell me electricity and others asking if I had debt problems broke me off at the most inconvenient times; people pushing white bags through the letter box begging for household goods all invaded my peace and calm and as I write more junk has just landed on the carpet. Please take all the above into account whilst looking at the pictures and if I can succeed given these conditions then surely anyone can. Without doubt the lighting and mixing of polish caused most of the problems with both being under my control; I’ll improve the lighting and give this button polish a much longer time to dissolve in future. I re-finished two cabinets during summer and these went perfectly with each being completed in a week so please don’t be put off by my experience with this Bush because I did enjoy working on it and it couldn’t have worked out better for this thread as it indicates whatever problems are encountered they can be overcome with a lovely polished cabinet at the end. The main points once again; Exercise a lot of patience and don’t try to rush. Use a sharp scraper and do any repairs to the cabinet. Flat the cabinet with abrasive paper and dust off. Apply stain as required and allow plenty of time for drying. Apply linseed oil; wipe away excess and allow plenty of time to dry. Apply enough brush coats of shellac for grain filling and flatting without break through. Flat with 600 grit paper lubricated with talcum powder and dust off; Apply shellac using a rubber. Stand back and admire. In six hours of flatting I used less than one sheet of 1200 grit paper due to lubricating with talc; normally I use 600 grit but as nothing had gone right decided to settle down and proceed very slowly hence the fine grit. If the surface looks poor then flatting can be done at any time as long as extreme care is taken not to break through the finish. French polishing is very easy using this method and in fact taking it to extremes the shellac could be applied with a sweeping brush as long as care was taken with flatting and then it could be burnished using burnishing cream; not recommended of course. For cabinet preparation prior to french polishing please visit my other threads covering; Missing veneer; Veneering for beginners and Cabinet scraper. I’m still very much a novice at French polishing but enjoy cabinet work far more than chassis work finding it very rewarding and being able to stand back and ask myself “Did I do that?” Over the next few days I’ll fit a new grille cloth and assemble everything then add before and after pictures. Hope this is of interest and encourages others to have a go the hardest part is making a start in fact with these notes you now have the benefit of my experience gained over a few years and don’t need to search out materials. Please try it for yourself; it’s fun. By the way was it worth it? Col. |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Wow, Col, I'm absolutely stunned!
The end result almost looks too good to be true. I bet the set didn't look that good when it left the factory. I do have to say that the vast majority of us wouldn't have the patience to do what you've done. It's a real credit to you. And thanks for an excellent write-up. Nick. |
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Kind regards |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Super job and excellent write up Thank You.
Regards David |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Hi :)
thats an excellent write up, and the end result looks absolutely stunning! With the information in your other threads, I think I'm going to have a go, I have my first victim; a Bush VHF81 which is trashed! thanks for posting this thread :) regards, Lloyd. |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Beautiful job and excellent tutorial!
Just a note - ebony is one of those timbers known to be toxic, and can cause skin and eye sensitivity, so care needs to be taken, particularly with the dust. |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Hello all,
Superb work!! Thank you very much for these posts. I'm just about to start veneering.. French polishing will follow... Many thanks, Bodge99 |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
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Hi,
Thanks for your kind comments guys; I'm just pleased to pass on what I've learnt and did it to encourage others to have a go because I've made most of the mistakes the hard way. I'm delighted to hear you're thinking of having a go Lloyd and hope many others follow; go for it and enjoy yourself. I've a small confession to make and that is I never liked the light coloured wooden trim on this Bush; it was initially finished with dark shellac and added to the overall dismal colour of the cabinet; when I stripped it I found it was cheap timber and the grille opening appeared to be made from common deal with a very large grain which can be seen in the previous picture. Having reached this stage I wanted to go a bit further and see what I could really do by pushing myself further. I couldn't improve on the finish to the veneer but the two grille bars; grille surround; dial surround and feet didn't sit well with me at all. I risked making a mess of the work already done and masked the cabinet using masking tape and paper allowing me to spray these bits. I chose a spray can of auto satin black lacquer thinking it might improve the look and possibly pull it all together? I didn't want to use gloss black because it would have been too much. I opened the workshop window and sprayed a bit at a time letting each bit flash off and applying more coats then turned the cabinet and sprayed again as before; the workshop stank of lacquer and it carried through into the bungalow where it lingered for quite a while. I had tried to buy correct masking tape when I bought the lacquer but the supplier was totally out of stock so I resorted to using some I had previously bought from Poundland; I wasn't impressed to see that the lacquer had softened the tape adhesive allowing lacquer to creep beneath in a few places; not too badly but still annoying so this was another little job requiring attention removing the unwanted lacquer. I removed the masking paper and used white spirit to remove the remains of the adhesive and hadn't noticed what the cabinet looked like until I stood back and had a good look. I was amazed standing there looking at the cabinet as it was now just as I wanted it to look and I felt over the moon; to me the extra work was well worth the effort. The ugly duckling was now a swan and I could live with it. I hope to add a finished picture shortly but here are pictures of the cabinet to date with the black lacquer added. Col. |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Col.,
Excellent tutorial, and superb results. Thanks! One question (sorry if it's dumb :-]). When describing the application of thinned polish using straight strokes, you say that "panels are worked both ways". Does this mean backwards and forwards, but always (say) parallel to the longest edge; or does it mean applying alternate coats in perpendicular directions? (I'm sure it's the former, but I thought I'd check!). FWIW, I think my technique, self-taught, and operated by someone who is immensely impatient :D, differs in only a few ways: i) I've never used raw linseed oil on the wood ii) I don't paint the 'base' coats iii) I do use a few drops of raw linseed oil on the rubber after each charge iv) I charge the rubber by dipping it in a bowl of polish, rather than by pouring directly onto the cotton wool inside. I'll be trying your techniques next time I do a cabinet! Thanks again for the write-up, dave |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Col
That black is a lovely finishing touch - cannot wait to see the Bush finished and running, in the flesh as it were, next time we pop over. :thumbsup: |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Col,
Another marvellous write up and many congratulations on your patience and skill. I note that you used Blackfriar Wood Dye Walnut stain. I often use Colron wood dye which I think is much the same. However a few people advocate the use of spray toner and I wonder why. Is it easier to blend in. Is it even the same sort of thing. I'd be interested on any comments from people experienced in its use. Jim |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Hi,
I feel very humbled by all your very kind comments; thank you. Thanks for bringing up the subject of toxic timbers dseymo1; a lot of timbers are taken for granted but are actually quite dangerous to health. Most exotics need careful handling and if in any doubt whatsoever wear protection. The worst I suffer is usually a bit of sneezing whilst hand sanding but if I power sand I always wear my respirator. I do woodturning and Spalted Beech is very common but I wonder how many turners have suffered ill health due to not wearing protection whilst sanding this on the lathe? The very best of luck with your veneering and polishing bodge99 (great name for this type of work). If its your first attempt expect a lot of frustration but work through it and take your time; the more problems encountered the greater the pleasure as you stand back and admire the finished job; please stick with it and you will succeed. If a question needs to be asked I never consider it to be dumb so please ask away Dave. I read the tip about applying the raw linseed oil from the book mentioned earlier and once this stage is reached and the oil is applied it is truly magical; to see the colours suddenly jump out at me always gives me a thrill. The oil must be allowed to completely dry before proceeding however long it takes. If dipping the rubber in shellac works for you then its ok but I would never do it because there is a great risk of depositing far too much shellac onto the panel in one go; this is why I always press the rubber onto the paper to check. I apply brush coats of shellac in order to quickly build up a decent thickness and fill the grain but using the rubber will work but is a lot slower. Your question regarding the straight strokes is very valid and I've taken the liberty of searching for a video which demonstrates far better than words showing exactly how the rubber is applied inside a panel and lifted off at the very edge. I've never seen this video before but it's very interesting and hope it answers the question for you. Please visit; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF7wANfTub8 Thanks Mike; the chassis died so needs a bit of work but I did get it working when I first bought the set so there isn't too much wrong with it; just another job in the queue? I'm pleased you like the black trim and it's something new I learnt for future use; many cabinets have bits of veneer missing around grille and speaker openings which are very fiddly to replace and time consuming so if a set isn't to valuable then filling in these areas and spraying is a wonderful solution; I wish I'd tried it before and any colour can be used not just black. Yes Jim; there are many brands of this kind of stain (spirit) and they can easily be identified because they are thinned or cleaned off with white spirit; I happened to have Blackfriars but have used Colron many times; these stains take quite a bit of time to dry especially in winter but are easy to apply and don't raise the grain. I also use water stain mixing my own from Vandke Crystals and this is extremely cheap; gloves are a must during use as stain bites deep into skin. I've never used toner but it is used extensively in the States. Over here it is difficult to obtain but can be found by surfing the web in fact I think I saw it the last time I visited Restoration Materials? Its not cheap. Full panels can be sprayed and it is used for applying the darker band of colour around panel edges as seen on much modern furniture; I would have liked to experiment with toner but was put off by the cost. I look back now to all those wasted years when I was scared stiff of French polishing and wonder what really scared me as I love doing this work now and when I step into my workshop to start one of these cabinet jobs its like stepping into a fantasy land; I put on my favourite music running a cd from a Walkman into one of my vintage sets; turn up the central heating radiator and Bron brings me a pot of tea and a biscuit every now and then. Later when the job is completed I stand back and still feel extremely strange wondering how the heck did I achieve that; surely I can't have done it? Life is good. Col. |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Col,
Many thanks for your inspirational article and congratulations on the outstanding results you've achieved with the set pictured. I've been interested in cabinet refinishing for years and dabbled with French polishing occasionally, but never really got to grips with it. Now, I'm encouraged to order some decent materials from the web site you recommended and to give it another go. |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Hi,
Forums are new to me and I couldn’t have joined a better or more well run forum than this one. Right from the very start with my request for help I’ve been made most welcome. Members have been extremely generous not only offering first class advice but also sending me items through the post entirely free of charge. Thank you all. In return I’ve tried to respond in kind and in particular by adding threads on subjects that generally scare the average person to death as they used to scare me. Cabinet work is a huge subject in its own right and whilst most forum members are very good with the electrics side tend to shy away from cabinet work as though it is some kind of black magic. May I be allowed to share my thoughts without preaching; criticizing or lecturing in any way as I only wish to encourage others to produce similar cabinet results to mine? My method is so simple and goes back to absolute basics in how I think; I’m just an ordinary guy so how did I learn to do this type of work? Two things really; the first is patience and the second is two words “I can’t”. Taking the first; what is patience? According to my dictionary it is described as “Quality of enduring”. I never expected to ride a bike on my first attempt in fact I fell off many times hurting myself. I didn’t start my working life expecting to know the jobs inside out right from the beginning. Learning to walk and speak were tough ones to master. The dictionary is absolutely correct because by endurance I learned these things as I have with everything else in life. Years ago I used to say “I’ve no patience” but what did I really mean; was it that I had little interest in trying? This isn’t a failing in any way because there are many things I’m not interested in so wouldn’t consider trying them; hence I have no patience. The second is “I can’t” how true this is; anyone saying these two words couldn’t be more truthful as they are correct; they can’t and never will. By removing the letter “t” from “I can’t” results in “I can” therefore I will succeed in whatever I try. Cabinet work is nothing more than a learning curve requiring endurance and a positive attitude. The results I achieve are usually very hard won because I make many stupid mistakes; I think many times that I appear to make every mistake possible before doing the correct thing but this is where I finally succeed because I endure. It is my sincere desire to encourage others to have a go; not only in cabinet work but in other things thought beyond them. My thread on the “Wave winder” is a good example because I had never cut a gear before in my life and didn’t know how to but with patience I came up with a new method and produced cast iron gears within a short period of time. I’d like to have a go at vacuum veneering and also learn computer graphics to the professional level shown in threads on this forum. I can do both in time because I have the desire to do so together with a positive attitude. I’ve gone on at length because I feel these notes are so fundamental to anything I try to do and hope they make others to just stop a while and consider why they can’t do things they would like to do? Over the years we have had many visitors to our home and the number of times we’ve heard comments saying “I can’t do that” or “I haven’t got the tools” when shown what we have made. In our first home I made and installed a fully fitted kitchen made of white Contiplas; I used a tenon saw costing under £1 a single speed electric drill; a single ½” wood chisel together with a few more old screwdrivers etc. I had blisters to my hand with using the saw and had to keep sharpening it. Now I have excellent workshop facilities with industrial quality machine but all these machines do is to remove the hard work; they still need setting up because the work doesn’t do itself but the comments we now receive tend to be more “I don’t have the machinery”. I’m delighted my threads have been so well received and can only say thank you once again for all your very kind comments which are very much appreciated as they encourage me to do even better. I'm so pleased to hear from members saying they are now going to have a go and wish them the very best of luck; much frustration will follow but in equal amounts is the enjoyment experienced together with an immense feeling of overwhelming pride whilst standing back and looking at the beautiful job produced with their own hands. I never want to become an expert in anything as I feel it would be boring; making the mistakes and getting downright frustrated is the fun part for me because I know at the end I’ll eventually break through and win after all I just need to endure. Hope this is of interest and generates a bit of thought. Col. |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Hello
That work looks superb! Just to mention that I've found http://www.axminster.co.uk very good to deal with for tools and they do a good range of finishing supplies too. Ask for their printed cataloge for a good read -- it's as thick as a phone book but much more interesting. ;-) Bye for now. William |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
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Thanks William; yes Axminster are very good. I’m pleased to add the before and after pictures as the cabinet is now completed. I wanted to repair the chassis but the weather is so cold and dark making this difficult so I’ve temporarily assembled the set for a photo shoot. I did a quick search regarding “toner” as mentioned by Jim and can offer the following website which covers this in detail. Also for members wishing to see more cabinet restorations may I suggest an American site called Phil’s old radios and look under gallery. http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_bas...oner_Tips.html http://www.antiqueradio.org/welcome.htm T-cut is mentioned many times and is a product so well known as it seems to have been around forever. I’m aware T-cut is very well regarded by many using it and I’ve also used it for many years but I’ve never liked it. I’ve used it many times on cars and found it to be very hard work; blending each section was difficult and if used in summer it would quickly dry leaving me with a nightmare of a job trying to remove it. Since starting to restore radio cabinets I’ve tried to use T-cut again; I found I could control it better on smaller radio panels but after putting a great deal of effort into French polishing and wanting to burnish the finish; it would drive me mad; in certain light and viewed at a certain angle I could always see a pronounced haze in the finish. This also applies to a well known burnishing cream I bought. I wondered if this was caused by something like ammonia being added to these products and this having a slight etching effect. I certainly have never liked the feel of it either. I’m sincerely sorry if I sound to be derogatory about these products but wanted something better. I surf many radio websites and in America I kept seeing products by a company called Meguiars being highly recommended by radio cabinet restorers. After a bit of searching I found Meguiars advertised on eBay and quickly bought two products these being Meguiars professional show car glaze #7 and Meguiars swirl remover 2.0 #9. I used the swirl remover and right from the start was very impressed; it smelled much better and was much thicker being like a thick cream; I applied it using a soft cloth with hard circular movements and what a joy it was to remove; it just buffed off whether wet or dry but the finish it leaves is just brilliant; I’ve used it on this cabinet and followed with a final buffing using the car glaze. Both products also feel nice in use. For anyone interested in trying these and more Meguiars products I’m happy to recommend the following website where they can be bought here in the UK. http://www.performancemotorcare.com/...r_2_0__09.html Current prices are Swirl remover #9 £12.39 Inc. VAT and Car glaze #7 £11.36 Inc. VAT. Both are post free to the UK. Normally I can achieve an excellent French polish finish direct from the rubber but with the difficulties encountered with this cabinet decided to burnish it to bring out the mirror finish and it certainly now glows; in fact I’ve had problems trying to take the pictures due to reflection. I never liked the look of this radio thinking it to be ugly; I now hang my head in shame and apologize to it as I now think it a very handsome set indeed and still can’t believe what a difference a bit of loving care has made. Once again many thanks to everyone for their kind support and may I wish the very best of luck to all trying French polishing for the first time. Regards, Col. |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Hi Col,
Outstanding! That cabinet is simply superb! I don't believe it would have looked as good as it does now the day it came out of the Bush factory. Very well done! Kind regards |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Absolutely stunning.
Mike |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
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Mike |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Superb work, Col. Whatever you think of the cabinet styling and veneers, the finish you haver achieved really does you immense credit.
As for toner sprays: Quote:
Use toners if you've stripped a cabinet and find there are unwanted variations of colour in the veneer and you plan to lacquer the cabinet. I think it is best to use dyes when Frech polishing, or use a tinted French polish - see catalogues for types - if the colour is too light and you prefer not to risk staining. Hope this clarifies things a little. Toners are tricky to flat without cutting through, especially on corners. They must be over-lacquered with clear coats for durability. Toners sold by USA's Tubes and More (Antique Radio Supply) are excellent but hard to obtain and expensive. -Tony |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
That does look good!! I hope when I try I'll be able to do it that good too :)
there's a factory unit 2 doors down from where I work with a Meguiars sign on it, I always wondered what they did!! I might go bang on their door one lunch time to see if they sell the stuff from there. I shall have to try some of that swirl remover on my pye, which I used t-cut and burnishing cream on to try to make it look nice.. it still looks hazy in certain light (I used halfords spray lacquer on it ). I also don't particularly like t-cut much due to it being hard work to get off, and it always seems to leave a nasty greenish white powdery deposit behind on some surfaces where you can't get at to shift it easily! regards, Lloyd. |
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I had an export GEC receiver with B7G valves so a latish model I guess that had a very glossy lacquer finish. The grain however was almost invisible being hidden by some sort of obscuring coat. A very good set with good bandspread but pretty boring looking. I'm pleased to see that everyone on here likes shiny cabinets. Almost twenty years ago I entered my Ferguson 378 AC into Chas Miller's first concours event at Shifnal. I thought I'd made a beautiful job of the cabinet, admittedly not up to Col's standard and was quite annoyed when Gerry Wells called it a toffee apple. I didn't really expect to win but the winning set was grubby looking with a slack grill cloth. I've still got the Ferguson and still enjoy it. Thanks all, Jim |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Jim, there are those who think that finishing a cabinet to the very high quality exemplified here by Col's work is a 'blasphemy' and that 'patina' (muck and scratches) is essential to remain honest about a set.
Why? Beats me. Antiques from two centuries ago might be best left alone, woodworm, wear, dirt and all. Surely not radios. I know which I'd prefer to have in my home! It's the difference between conservation and restoration. The latter is my preference every time. How can a scruffy radio with loose grille cloth win a concours d'elegance? Gerry's a legend in his own lifetime but that doesn't mean he's always right. -Tony |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Moderators,
I would like to nominate this excellent thread for a well-deserved "sticky". Edward |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
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Regards |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Hi,
Once again many thanks for your kindness. I believe you are right Robert as the original finish on this cabinet was very thick and could have been Garnet polish which might explain why the veneer colours were so poor; by applying the coat of raw linseed oil the veneer colours really jumped out and this made a tremendous difference. Finishing with Button polish enhanced the colour rather than obscure it; also I had the time to spend working on the cabinet whereas to the factory time cost money and applying linseed oil would have severely slowed down production. I wonder how many excellent radio sets have ended up in landfill due to having nothing more seriously wrong other than a scruffy cabinet because as Mike correctly states we usually only see the grubby ones covered in years of neglect. I’m pleased to hear you have suffered the same problems with T-cut Lloyd and think you will be delighted with Meguiars swirl remover; I’m interested to see what happens when you visit the firm with the Meguiars sign outside also please let us know how you rate this product once you have tried it because I’ve only ever seen it mentioned in the states. I’m sorry to hear your story about the concours event Jim and can well understand your feelings after putting your heart and soul into a cabinet restoration to have it so rudely dismissed by Gerry; the comment was uncalled for and flippant and hardly in keeping with encouraging you to ever attend again. Please don’t sell yourself short Jim because looking at this another way it could be considered a back handed compliment as I’m sure your efforts must have been similar to mine to bring forth such a comment due to the brilliant shine. I hope the owner of the winning set has had time to reflect on it. A cabinet doesn’t have to have a glossy finish just because its French polished or lacquered and if desired a mat or satin finish can be achieved by the additional step of cutting back. This cutting back is usually done with the use of “0000” wire wool and wax polish; a ball of wire wool is dipped in the wax scooping a bit up and then applied using straight strokes to the surface finishing with a buffing using a clean soft cloth. I’ve never had much success with this method as the wire wool being random strands appeared to cut in varying degrees depending on how the wire wool was presented; some strands cutting a bit deeper than others. Trying to start a stroke using wire wool against an up stand such as a moulding proved difficult in trying to obtain a uniform appearance. I always end up with a sliver of wire wool embedded in my skin giving me electric shocks every time I touch anything so wire wool is disliked by me. I’ve seen some beautiful satin finishes produced using wire wool where the user unwrapped the wire wool into a flat very fine layer using this with straight strokes so perhaps more practice is required on my part. We have much in common Tony regarding the finish of a cabinet. I would never knock or criticize another person’s choice of cabinet finish because after all; surely the owner has the last word. I’ve kept my head down a bit expecting the term “over restored” to crop up which it did in a recent edition of the BVWS Bulletin. The cabinet in question was finished to better than new standard and a credit to the fine workmanship of its owner who I may add was actually a role model for me when I first joined the Society. At the time this upset me because I felt rather than criticize; more good would come from encouragement as we all enjoy our hobby in different ways. I could only live with a scruffy set until I could get my hands on it and restore it after all in another 70 years it might be scruffy again giving someone else pleasure restoring it. Thanks Tony for the additional toner information and I’d like to add a few thoughts on the subject. I agree totally that cutting through on corners is a major hazard and so easily done in a number of stages whilst restoring a cabinet and must be guarded against. Your reference to using dyes for French polishing is spot on. I had another restless night in bed last night as I was thinking about using an airbrush for applying dye for anyone seriously into French polishing. I bought a brand new compressor with two airbrushes as a friend informed me he had used an airbrush for applying shellac. I couldn’t get mine to spray only produce vast amounts of fumes so gave up. I would need to experiment but think it highly possible with practice to actually apply dye or stain much more accurately with an airbrush than by using a spray can and the cost would be low regarding material. (My compressor and two airbrushes cost approximately £60) Have you ever seen this done Tony or done it yourself? By using an airbrush more control could be exercised together with the dye or stain not obscuring the grain but enhancing it. Like with Tony’s information I’m always interested to hear in depth detail on re-finishing a cabinet as I still have a lot to learn. This Bush is now working; after pulling the valves and testing them and checking only to find decent voltages on all the pins I did a bit of disturbance testing to find the fault was only a poor aerial connection; this was strange because I had already tried the connection. I’ll spend a bit of time and convert my notes into an article and submit it for the editor’s consideration for inclusion in the “Bulletin”. Regards, Col. |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
I'm definitely into shiny cabinets too! Toffee apples are nice anyway. :-) If I want teacup stains and finger marks, I can always add my own later.
I'm still a relative novice, but thought I would pass on some hints from the professionals who taught me french polishing: - avoid rounding the edges when sanding by keeping a thumb pressed against the edge of the work underneath the sanding sponge or paper - they sealed the wood with sanding sealer first rather than french polish, and then cut it back before applying the polish. I prefer this way, having tried both ways - they dipped their rubbers straight into the polish, although I didn't ask them to explain why - they also taught me not to use gloves for polishing, as they thought it important to feel what you are doing with the rubber. It's not at all hard to get the polish off your fingers if you wash them in hot water with a splash of household ammonia added BUT not sure about the health implications of this apart from the risk of skin irritation. Anyone know? I hope these are of help! Best wishes Ben |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Col, I believe that there's a product on the market called (something like) spraying French polish. Personally I find it hard to see how normal French polish - shellac base - could be sprayed without sputtering or blocking the nozzle continuously, unless diluted to an unusable degree. I therefore suspect that the so-called 'Spraying' type may have a cellulose base rather than a meths and will in all likelihood have a formulation that bears no relation to true French polish.
I could be wrong, though! -Tony |
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-Tony [ |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Thats a fabulous job Colin. I'm tempted to ask you if I could post my Goblin Time Spot off to you for similar job done, given its the same size and shape! Seriously though, I think the finish you put on some of your radios is far better than the original factory finish. Great job.
John |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Hello Tony
I'm using Mylands Lacacote, but not sure whether they used the same or cellulose sealer. Do you think the cellulose is better? Regards, Ben |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Hi,
Thanks for the information Ben. I'm an experienced glass fibre laminater and ended up with mild dermatitis in my hands which cleared after leaving the job so now I'm very careful with what I handle; I only use warm water and washing up liquid hence it takes ages to get shellac off my hands if I don't wear gloves. Stain is even worse as it bites deep. Like Tony I've used sanding sealer for many years but only used mine whilst wood turning and its the Cellulose based kind which is not a nice product to use in a confined workshop as I'm looking at the instructions on the tin; Highly flammable; Harmful by inhalation; Keep away from sources of ignition;Take precautionary measures against static discharges; No smoking; Do not breath vapour/spray: Avoid contact with skin and eyes; Do not use in confined spaces with little or no ventilation. Reading this I don't know how I dare remove the cap off the tin? Mylands Lacacote sealer looks a much better option because its thinned with meths and can be applied by mop or rubber and I note it's stocked by Restoration Materials so I'll buy some on my next visit and dispose of this cellulose type I have. Any product containing meths still requires careful handling but in my opinion is a safer bet than cellulose and can be applied directly over dried linseed oil. The best french polishing jobs are grain filled with shellac; this uses more shellac and takes more time to accomplish but is the time honoured way and the way I work as I'm not in production and enjoy the process anyway. I'm of the same opinion as you Tony regarding spraying French polish; I thinned shellac right down until like water but as already stated created one heck of a fog whilst trying to air brush it; I also have large spray guns but was worried about clogging these up with dried shellac. I did a quick web search and found spraying french polish is available but I'm unsure what solvent would be used in this product as it is descibed as made with modified solvents and it can be purchased at; http://www.wsjenkins.co.uk/polishes.htm Many thanks for the kind words John please form an orderly queue. Thanks to Ben I've learnt something new and will now change to meths based sealer. Out of interest a quick grain filler many years ago was to add a handful of powdered chalk to shellac and this was used on furniture backs the mixture being agitated frequently during use. Regards, Col. |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Hello Col,
I'm glad you've found the sealer subject helpful. Another thing I've found good for removing polish is Comma Manista (for example, see http://www.wilcodirect.co.uk/index.p...oducts_id=1260). I think it would be safer than diluted ammonia, as it's based on coconut, lemon and it's got a gritty texture which helps scrub the polish off. That said, I can understand that there's something to be said for avoiding getting it on in the first place, and that takes us back to the gloves... Regards, Ben |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Hi Ben
The name 'Lacacote' seems to suggest that it is in fact cellulose-based. Who knows these days! I suggest that its a case of horses for courses - if you are definitely going to French polish an item, perhap the shellac product is most 'authentic'. If however you intend to lacquer with cellulose or similar, the cellulose sealer might be the one to choose. It's worth saying though that either can be used for any finish as, as far as I am aware, shellac sanding sealer is unaffected by cellulose - and vice versa. The only reason I tend to prefer the cellulose sealer is its ease of use: shellac products are a little messy for the less-than-professional worker. As Col says, wear cheap hand protection or you'll have the devil's own job getting the stuff out of your fingernails. Everything has its vices, though and cellulose products are highly volatile, so beware of the fumes if, like me, your lungs are somewhat compromised. Neither type of sealer is primarily intended to grain fill but the shellac type will do so given patience. Grain filler can be bought in tints as a paste, but it is messy stuff in my experience. I've seen French chalk added, as Col mentions. -Tony |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Hi,
I hope this thread encourages even more members to have a go at French polishing as more information is added. I've never seen french polishing basics covered before in such detail and sincerely wish I had this information together with suppliers years ago rather than have to struggle the way I did. Thanks once again Ben; I've just done a search on the Comma Manista hand cleaner and find it on sale locally through Wilco Motosave. Wilco have 43 stores and it can also be bought online at £3.69 plus UK delivery £2.95. 700ml. by clicking on the link. I've never heard of this product but it looks to be perfect for my needs and I'm more than happy to buy some. I'd like to add a bit more information on tinted shellac as mentioned in Tony's post #20. As experience is gained virtually any colour of polish can be made by the addition of powdered colour sold for the purpose of colouring shellac and once again this is is available from Restoration Materials. The colours are powerful so a little goes a long way. For a poor cabinet Garnet Shellac hides a multitude of sins. Regards, Col. |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
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Hi Lads,
Just to prove that anyone can have a go here's a few pictures of my Pye P45 that I've been working on. I have to say I wouldn't have got interested in cabinet work except for Col's excellent threads here and his limitless patience in helping me via email. Anyway I think I'm slowly getting there and have to recommend French polishing. I'm pretty useless at this sort of thing as a rule and tend not to enjoy it, however this has been a real eye-opener. First using a cabinet scraper to prepare makes the job enjoyable instead of miserable like stripper. Secondly the satisfaction of French polish is enormous, you do need patience but unlike either Danish Oil (easy but rubbish finish) or Lacquer (tricky work, smelly chemicals, but good results) it has given good results - first go, and been a pleasure. Anyway here's my pics so far - before I muck the whole job up trying to make a PYE logo! Dom |
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Re: French polishing for beginners.
Hi Col
The Manista does take more perseverance/scrubbing than ammonia solution, but it's probably as good as it gets without resorting to nasty chemicals. Let me know how you find it. Regards Ben |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Hi,
Thanks Ben I'll let you know; I've just bought a tub of Manista and it looks promising; it also smells nice. A splendid job Dom and what a transformation. I'm so pleased you are the first to show your success with scraping and french polishing as I know how much effort and determination you've put in on this cabinet over the last few weeks and its a credit to you. I agree about the deep sense of satisfaction experienced after completing a cabinet this way; I feel it every time making me want to do another. It's been a pleasure to help you. The coat of raw linseed oil has really brought the wonderful colour out and I'd like to see a picture of the completed set. Regards, Col. |
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What an interesting post, and what an outstanding piece of hard work, stunning end results, the radio looks perfect...kind regards...Alan.
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Re: French polishing for beginners.
I'm lucky enough to have had an uncle who was a trained french polisher when he worked as a bar fitter in the 1950's, so I was given a crash course a few years ago. I practised on a 1950's bush that had seriously delaminated due to being left outside, a radio that would have simply been sprayed on a production line when new; after all the hard work I managed to get a passable result and a radio that was visually much better than the average early 50's Bush or Pye mass product.
I used Bartoline ready mixed french polish with a cotton-covered sponge rubber and a dab of linseed oil on the rubber (ie a fingertip of it) after each recharge. There's nothing as exciting as slotting a restored chassis into a restored cabinet for the first time and putting the knobs and back on, then standing back and switching on! Your radio has a beautiful finish and I hope you're inspired to do more this way, I love these step by step pictorial accounts; good work. |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Hi,
Many thanks Alan & Kevin for your kind comments. I totally agree with you Kevin regarding the sheer pleasure it gives to switch on and stand back to admire a newly fully restored wireless; the harder the restoration the greater the pleasure. I've finally tried the Manista hand cleaner Ben and agree it is good stuff; it does feel strange in use as it's like rubbing rough grit between the hands but it beats washing up liquid so many thanks for recommending it as I'm now a convert. My latest project is giving me a great deal of grief at the moment as I'm attempting to make a brand new wire wound pot track from scratch. It is proving to be a fascinating project and so far I've managed to heat form the Paxolin/Tufnol track. Sorry moderators; I've drifted again but would like to take this opportunity to request additional categories to be added to this excellent forum as there are so many interesting projects indirectly connected to wireless restoration after all how many ways are there of changing caps and resistors? For anyone interested I'm "retired 2000" on ARF Kindest regards, Col. |
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Hi Col
Your wirewound restoration is very impressive, and we would love to see a thread on here about it, as there are many of us who have problems sourcing these. :) |
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Hi Mike,
Many thanks for the invitation and I know you are following my progress with interest. Unfortunately I must politely decline as the thread would be extensive and wander much too far "off topic" as the pot I'm working on belongs to a 1931 Lagonda 2 ltr tourer. I will of course be delighted to add other threads covering any future projects acceptable by forum rules. Kind regards, Col. |
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The revival of this thread has spurred me to finish off my P45 practice set. Here's a few pictures. The logo was done with an undercoat of "antique gold" model paint and then a water slide transfer. I deliberately put a thumbprint on it and slightly missed the gold-spot to match the original! (Honest)
The finish on this set is by no means perfect but has a lovely lustre and shine. Not bad for a first go and looks miles better than my attemps on other cabinets with cellulose laquer, polyeurethane and teak oil. They all work ok but don't bring out the natural feel of the wood. Anyway, thanks to Col for taking the time to show me how to start with French polishing. Once you get started it's far easier than it might first appear and is easier to get a nice finish than any other method I've seen. Also it's a doddle to make small repairs and touchups. Next up is my Pye VT4 cabinet which looks like it had been chucked down several flights of stairs... Dom |
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col,
you are a credit to this forum,keep up the great work. tony |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Hi Tony,
Many thanks for your kindness and encouragement; please see the following for my latest project; https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=62371 Kind regards, Col. |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
Just a reply to an earlier post. Shellac can be sprayed, brushed or padded (French Polished). Dependent on the level of expertise, all 3 can produce extremely good results. Brushing Shellac requires just as much skill as F'Polishing (perhaps more).
Liberon Burnishing Cream is perhaps the best UK substitute for the Maguires. Having said that many French Polishers do not use an abrasive for the final gloss but use a technique of dilute applications of the Shellac mix - known as glazing. There is no one 'correct' method of French Polishing, the techniques and ingredients vary from person to person. I guess the final result is all that matters. The nice thing regarding Shellac is that it is known for sticking to virtually any surface. It's also relatively easy to remove should the need arise. It is available in many types, from the darkest Garnet to the very pale types. 'Button Polish' has a reputation for being the most durable, although it's probably best to dewax it first. It does add an Orange/Brown hue to the wood. A liighter shade of Button is available but I've yet to see it available in the UK. I have never been happy with creating a matte finish using the wirewool technique. From a distance it looks fine. For the more discerning it looks unconvincing, largely because you are relying on tiny scratches to scatter the light. A matting agent will do a better job. I'm uncertain if it has been mentioned but Meths isn't the nicest form of alcohol to be in contact with one's skin. Wear a glove or find a safer solvent. |
Re: French polishing for beginners.
I think Methylated Spirits is the only solvent suited to Shellac although Toluene is used in Sanding Sealer, which is a simpler form of shellacing. Toluene ain't human-friendly either!
Bleached (White Shellac) avoids the golden hue and is superb on light-coloured woods. Shellac's versatility is such that it 'waterproofs' copper wire and electronics in tropical climes, but repairing shellac coated automotive wire joints is a pain the posterior. I always get a very satisfactory commerical finish with 0000 furniture grade wire wool and Briwax for a lovely sheen but at the end of the day, if comes down to consumer choice. Personally I hate seeing mirror finished lacquered wood - it looks soooo artificial... and makes me soooo envious of the French polisher's patience in his fine preparation! One day.... Barry |
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I'm really referring to the type of Alcohol. The commonly found purple dyed Methylated spirits usually contains Ethanol, Methanol and Pyradine. There are known health risks with the stuff. Either wear gloves or use something like Fiddes finishing spirit, which AFAIK is Ethanol with a touch of Shellac added. The small amount of Shellac probably allows them to retail the stuff as a clear spirit.
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