Re-spraying record decks.
 

Occasionally I come across record decks, mainly BSR and Garrard where there is either rust or paint coming off. If I wanted to re-spray it, how would I go about it?

What paint would I use? I usually buy car paint from say Halfords. Can I spray straight onto the old paint, or do I need to strip off the old paint before I spray?

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

With my GL59, I took everything off (it was flaking, and was that dirty green colour that may be suitable for an army tent, but not so good for the home) and got it stripped and powder-coated in my favoured Signal Yellow. I may be right in thinking it cost about £40 for the base and platter, with the relevant screw threads and holes arranged to be masked up. I think they welded up some extraneous holes for an ex-tonearm as well. I put the labels and plates back on afterwards.

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

I would completely remove the old paint and start with a can of primer.

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

Agree, completely strip, if some has come off the rest is probably the same - about to.
I would use an etch primer first.

Alan

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

Spraying shows up any unevenness of the underlying thing. It takes care and sensitive finger tips to feel if something is smooth enough to be worth spraying.

For something the size of a turntable chassis, I wouldn't mess around, I'd want all the paint off. I have a bead blast gun and a compressor in the garage. This makes it easy, removes rust and leaves an excellent surface ready for etch primer (available in aerosols). The job of the etch primer is just to grip the metal, after a single coat, apply a coat of ordinary primer or 'high build' primer. If you see/feel unevenness, you can rub this to flatten it. Spray on another coat if you go through. Only when you are really really happy with the undercoat is it time for the colour coat. The smoothness of the preparation is what sets the quality of the finished job. Depending on the sort of paint you choose for the colour, you may need to apply a clear lacquer coat on top.

Holts used to do a grey/silver metallic aerosol called 'Steel Wheels' that I've used as a good finish for amateur radio gear, looking like the finish Yaesu and Trio used. The finish isn't high gloss, and would look right at home on the chassis of a Garrard autochanger of the sixties onwards.

Avoid cellulose paint. It is VERY fussy about what paints are under it and will bubble up or wrinkle if there are even slight traces of some other chemistries remaining. Commercially, you are no longer allowed to use it, except for repairing things already in such paint. Repair aerosols from car accessory shops are mostly acrylic, which behaves better and is quite tolerant.

I have Land Rover 'Bonatti Grey' in stock which is also a mid grey which would look suitable, but this is in a non-aerosol paint system that needs a clear overcoat. I'll be spraying some next year when the weather clears up, so the guns will have all the right stuff in them to do one for you.

David

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

Nearly right advice! Things have moved on a great deal in paint technology. The first step is to completely strip the deck back to clean, shiny metal. Blasting is a good technique but flatting with 120 grit dry is good if you have the elbow grease. You can get it powder coated but I don't feel that will be a 'domestic' enough finish personally.

Next stage is to clean it thoroughly. Soap and water allowed to dry after rinsing, followed by panel wipe.

A coat or two of a decent epoxy primer comes next. There are many on the market but my favourite is Lechler 29107. That is a two part primer but does not contain isocyanates so nothing special in the way of PPE required.

Once that has gone off (24 hours) flat it back to 400 grit dry and then you can paint it with whatever floats your boat. For the best possible quality, take it round to a friendly bodyshop for 2K paint finishing. Otherwise a DECENT quality aerosol from a car bodyshop supplier will have you very pleased with the result.

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

Michael is probably going to be limited to aerosols, so I reckoned that ruled out epoxies.

I don't bother buying 800 and 1200 grit, I've plenty of worn-down 400 which I use with soap. For Michael, without any prior stuff to hand, he'll need something a bit finer than 400 for anything which may be critically viewed.

That Land Rover grey I use is 2K, by the way.

I certainly agree with the advice about aerosols from good bodyshop suppliers rather than consumer brands. I use Woodauto in Huddersfield, but that's somewhat out of Michael's roaming area. There must be equivalents around London.

David

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

My experiences with using body shops for things other than cars have always been bad. I once spent hours cleaning off and preparing a high end electric guitar (PRS) and got it sprayed by a local body shop. The finish never fully hardened off, and the sound of the guitar was dull and lifeless. Car sprayers tend to apply too much paint to domestic objects giving them a very obvious 'resprayed', 'thick' look. Just my experience.

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

Getting a good finish is all about preparation.

I'd seek to remove *all* of the existing paint, thoroughly abrade the underlying metal to remove any signs of oxidation or 'spider-web tracks', then go for an acid-etch primer - "U-Pol acid #8" in a rattle-can is available from the likes of Halfords.

Then the top-coat is up to you - in the past I've had decent success with "Plasti-Kote" acrylic rattle-cans - the thing here is not to over-spray in a single coat (or you will get runs) and then to leave the painted object somewhere warm for a couple of weeks for the paint to properly harden. If you handle too soon, or try to reassemble things, you can easily tear or indent the surface of the paint-film.

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

Thank you all for your inputs (excuse the pun) Not this time, but I will try it soon on a deck that requires refurbishing.

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

The Lechler can be brushed or rollered. Just takes more flatting of course, but worth it because it outperforms any other primer on the market, on all substrates, even difficult ones like aluminium and plastics.
It is also totally inert and waterproof when cured so you can use anything you like over the top with no risk of reactions.

It depends what is going over the top of course. For a thin material like acrylic, then possibly finer. For metallics then 800 is the figure to aim for, all preferably done dry. 400 dry generally will suit solid 2k but even then I tend to go 800 for everything.

2k is good stuff if you have the correct PPE of course. I would have suggested basecoat and lacquer if he did, a nice cherry red metallic maybe?

Just for his information, the reason for that recommendation is the spray nozzle and pressurisation quality. They give a nice consistent pattern which can make all the difference. Also they can be mixed to any colour that can be imagined.

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

As well as having very versatile colour mixing capabilities, paint specialists often have optical scanners these days which will get a close (depending on how carefully they're maintained and operated) match to the colour of existing paintwork. They can also add various amounts of matting agent to adjust the glossiness of the finish.

Cheers,

GJ

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

A small trick with spray cans!! Put them in a bucket of hot water before spraying.
This does several things,
1. Thins the paint a little so smaller atomisation.
2. Increases the pressure inside the can, so again better atomisation.
3. Allows thinner coats to be applied.
All the above make for "no orange peel" which is horrible to look at on something we look at very closely.
Spray cans ( good quality ones) are capable of excellent results.

A reasonable time in the hot water is advised!! Too long, or too hot and it may burst
( although I have never seen that happen ).
This was shown to me by an automotive panel beater/spray painter.

Joe

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

Yes true, however the panel needs to be at a similar temperature. Not so much of an issue down under I suppose! ;D

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

You can always use an oven to heat it up to 20 -30 degrees.

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

You don't want the panel too hot if you want a gloss finish, you want the paint to settle and smooth out by surface tension before the solvent flashes off.

David

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

Also important if spraying with rattle-cans is ambient humidity. As soon as the paint emerges from the spray-nozzle the solvents (and some dissolved propellant) want to evaporate - which involves grabbing heat from the environment, and so the individual paint-droplets cool and act as foci for condensation of any moisture in the surrounding air. If moisture condenses on the paint-droplets, or the cooling effect causes air-moisture to condense and then be carried onto the workpiece along with the paint-droplets - the finished result can include millions of tiny moisture-inclusions which give a matt surface when you wanted a shine.

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

I just clicked the 'like' button.

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

Ok, so you want the ambient humidity to be...?

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

Ambient humidity - ideally somewhere below 50%, that way it becomes a small-to-insignificant effect. This is why professionals use air-conditioned spray-booths.

Normal UK ambient humidity is more iin the 65-90% range!

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

Joe is right, I put ali chassis's and the paint tins to the side of my open fire for 30 mins before spraying, then a quick wipe with a tack cloth.

Another tip is to make a spray booth out of a big cardboard box, this can be closed after spraying to stop hairs and other crap getting on the surface.

With spray cans spraying from the right distance (and speed) determines what sort of finish you get, it's a good idea to use a good nozzle too, the ones that spray a "flat" spray are good, clean with thinners afterwards.

Lastly always start spraying from the side, thing to be sprayed vertical, start at the bottom and move up making sure you've got good coverage; it's a good idea to do a test panel first.

Andy.

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

Don't try for total opacity in one coat. Make your first coat cover everything with a uniform degree of opacity, leave it a while to flash off solvent, spray another similar layer, and keep repeating until you have full opacity. It's a common mistake to try to lay the whole lot down in one pass.

Remember that the solvents are highly inflammable and that you can reach explosive proportions before you notice...qv the recent news article on the smoker who'd used a lot of air freshener in his car before lighting up. It blew the car apart with him in it and damaged windows in nearby buildings. Good ventilation is rather important.

David

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

Scimitar (post #11) and others , I’m following this with interest. If I brush or roller Lechler, do the rugosities or brush-strokes flatten out by themselves?

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

I just learned a new word!

8-)

I wonder if the etymology has similar origins to rug as in carpet?

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

Hi Chris , it’s a great-sounding word, isn’t it? I like that it can be used quite mathematically ( dealing with smoothness/roughness as a ratio, so relevant to quantifying why one isurface is more ideal / ready for painting than another- or why one finish looks better than another! )

... as well as more casually to describe variations in texture - and also in some aspects of complexity science.

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

So etched foil capacitors are all about achieving more capacitance through rugosity.

Useful!

I'll write it down in my vocabulary book :-)

David

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

yep, perfect example!

How about *rugulose*?

The more *rugulose* an etched foil anode, the greater the capacitance .... or should that be ‘the more *rugose*, yet another one starting with rug- :-)

These two are just distinguished apart by relative fine-ness or coarseness of wrinkle and don’t express things mathematically. Only rugosity has that capability.
Let’s give a big hand to the nuances of Latinate words !

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

The technical term you are looking for is "flow out". :)

It is to do with how fast the solvents evaporate. The slower the evaporation, the better the flow out. If it dries too fast, there is not enough time for it to do so. You will see that problem with water based domestic paints.

It is unlikely that you will get a perfect surface when brushing or rollering, so expect to flat it back after curing (12 hours ish). I would use 120 grit dry before painting, then 320 grit dry followed by 500 and then 800 but finishing at 500 will do for most non metallic finishes.

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

Thank you , Scimitar, this is very helpful. I’ll add ‘flow-out’ to my vocab!

A few more Q’s:

1) what’s the difference between two-part epoxy primer like Lechler and two-part epoxy resin adhesive?

2) can I successfully apply two-part epoxy primer as a finishing coat over cured yacht varnish? (This is for a historic reason, not starting from scratch)

3) And, when I do want a finishing coat, what is a good brand / source of small quantities of finishing coat to brush over the cured Lechler? This is for small areas but with a high aesthetic impact. Heat resistance is ideal.

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

They are closely related. It is largely the amount of filler materials and pigments etc that make up the difference.

You can but a) the primer is going to go chalky eventually with UV exposure and b) the whole lot will only be as good as the weakest link. In your case, the varnish. The best adhesion will result from stripping it off.

Anything you like. The epoxy primer is inert and so aerosol car paint or anything else you choose will go on without issue. If you want it classy, I would go to a car paint supplier and get an aerosol made up of a metallic basecoat that you like and an aerosol of 1K lacquer.

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

Thank you Scimitar.

On 1), since they’re closely related, can I use the primer as an adhesive in some circumstances ? The Lechler is costly and it’s ideal if I can double up .

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

No, it's too thin.

The Lechlar is about £15 per litre including the hardener when bought as a 2:1 litre. I use Express Paints in the south somewhere.

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

Nice, that’s very reasonable . Cheers

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

It depends a lot what base metal you are dealing with.

If it is a cast aluminium like metal it can be very difficult to get the new paint to stick well without an etch prime. I use Alodine which is used in the aircraft industry to prepare aluminium part prior to painting and then, for a task like a turntable (say a Garard 301 or similar) I have used enamel spray, VHT is by far the better spray enamel because you can bake it in a domestic oven, 80 to 90 Deg C is fine. And it sticks is very well to the primer and goes rock hard and scratch resistant with a nice gloss finish that looks like a professional paint job.

If it's Steel its a whole different ball of wax because you have rust to contend with. If it is not practical to take it to the electroplaters (have all rust removed and zinc plated) I use Fertan organic rust converter. Then directly over that I would use Holts automotive spray lacquer as it sticks very well to the Fertan film on the surface. If you have a look at the small Mullard speaker in the TRF radio I made recently on another thread, it was very rusty, treated with Fertan and sprayed with Holts brown metallic lacquer to restore its finish.

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

That was certainly the case years ago, but with the advent of epoxy primers, it is not an issue. It outperforms all the specialist (and reactive) primers of old. Properly prepared with 120 grit and clean, you will need a dangly grinder to remove it. Steel, aluminium, GRP, plastics, you name it, epoxy primer sticks like the proverbial and is totally inert once cured. It is also very flexible. That means that you don't have to worry about solvent sink or reactions spoiling the finish and it will even work on bumper rubbers etc.

It really is a wonder material, if you have no experience of it, I recommend that
you test it for yourself. It doesn't contain isocyanates, so no special PPE required, even for spraying.

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

I'd endorse the recommendation to use high temprature paint for spraying aluminium. After some experimentation with various paints I stripped and sprayed the Roberts R505 grille shown in the attached photo with PlastiKote Wood Stove. It needed baking to harden the paint but the outcome is close to the original satin finish and the paint adheres really well. The fact that it initially dries soft, but with good adhesion, also helps greatly when peeling off the modellers' masking tape.

Alan

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

Not too off-topic for this thread I hope, but can any one give any tips for touching-up the engraved (and then 'picked out' with paint) lettering on a metal panel once it's painted?

Mike

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

Wise warning!!

Back in about 1961 I worked in a laboratory and was testing the physical properties of aerosol cans for pharmaceutical use. One test involved placing the cans in a temperature controlled very hot waterbath.
A colleague removed one of the cans to apply a pressure gauge to the nozzle, but accidentally dropped the can.

The explosion was deafening, the base flew off the can and hit him in a very sensitive place. It was quite amusing to the others in the lab but the poor chap needed hospital attention.

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

I might have to disagree with you on this. Any surface prepared with 120 grit will adhere to even the poorest quality paint, either lacquer, acrylic or enamel.

The issue is , as pointed out by others, a paint job is no better than the surface it sits on. Unless the paint is abomanably thick & ugly.

For a proper finish it requires the surface is finished to at least the texture seen with 1200 to 2000 grade paper, or either the thick paint masks the scoring from the 120 grade paper or the correct thickness paint shows the scoring from the 120 paper. So you cannot have it both ways.

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What do people recommend for stripping paint completely? I used to use methylene chloride type stripper but it is not great for the health or environment and I don’t know if we have less noxious but equally efficient agents at our disposal ?

It was banned by the US Environmental Protection Agency (way out of UK jurisdiction , I know, but it suggests how nasty it is)

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

I recently tried the Benzyl Alcohol based stripper that was introduced as a 'green' alternative when traditional Nitromors etc. was outlawed. Now, I was expecting it - like most 'green' alternatives - to be about as much use as nipples on a fish - but to my surprise it actually worked OK.

[It does tend to dry out though: so I put the stripper-coated item-to-be-stripped into a Zip-loc bag for a few days].

I've also used Sodium Hydroxide successfully - though don't use it on aluminium or its alloys!

Alternatively, in the past I've had things bead- or soda-blasted: there's a local guy who refurbishes alloy classic car wheels: for the cost of a pint or two he'll pop my radio-chassis or similar in his cabinet when he's next doing a batch of 1960s Minilites.

Re: Re-spraying record decks.
 

Thanks G6! I’ll give benzyl alcohol a whirl. Apprarently it needs to be in aqueous solution .....