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Other Vintage Household Electrical or Electromechanical Items For discussions about other vintage (over 25 years old) electrical and electromechanical household items. See the sticky thread for details. |
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16th May 2011, 5:54 pm | #141 |
Heptode
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Milton Keynes, Buckinghamshire, UK.
Posts: 931
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Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings
This situation seems to have become somewhat more fluid of late, and there seem to be conflicting opinions floating around regarding the production of T12 fluorescents.
The latest I've heard however, echoed both by what I've read over on lighting-gallery.net and a local electrical wholesaler (one who seems to know their stuff too, I might add) is that 8-foot T12s and such will not be banned in the near future, but HALOPHOSPHATE ones will be - instead they'll be produced using triphosphor phosphors - colour 840 etc. I can't vouch for this information necessarily being correct - but I've heard it from several sources now. In the mean time I'll definitely be stocking up on any older T12 lamps I can get hold of anyway, as they seem to last far better than the modern lamps for some reason. Do need to try to find an old fitting now though, as I recently stumbled across an old Cryselco 80W B22 capped fluorescent (circa November 1970), and could really do with a period fixture to show it in. |
18th May 2011, 5:24 pm | #142 | |
Nonode
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: North Somerset, UK.
Posts: 2,129
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Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings
Quote:
These lamps were normally worked in series pairs from a 5 foot 80 watt ballast. London underground used them a lot in pedestrian tunnels, the straight bit being lit by 5 foot 80 watt lamps, with pairs of 2 foot 40 watt end to end in curved sections. Batten fittings existed for two 2 foot 40 watt lamps, again in series from an 80 watt choke. If desired a single 40 watt 2 foot lamp may be lit from a pair of 18/20 watt ballasts in paralell. One not very efficient lamp, and 2 not very efficient ballasts, not suprising that they never caught on. The total circuit watts could be 70 watts, and the light similar to a 100 watt incandescent. A 4 foot 40 watt lamp would give more light, use less energy, and require a single replacement lamp of a cheap type rather than 2 lamps each more costly. |
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18th Oct 2011, 12:35 pm | #143 |
Octode
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Wimborne, Dorset, UK.
Posts: 1,407
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Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings
Hi everyone,
Thought I'd revive this one again with a vintage fitting I aquired from my auntie and uncles shed on Sunday It was still in service! I first saw this fitting in their shed many years ago and I was intrigued at it's look and the way it struck up as it seemed to have a normal household light bulb in the end that flickered with the tube whilst trying to strike! (turns out to be the "Atlas starter lamp" Well after a combination of reading this thread and recently visiting my auntie and uncle the subject of the light fitting came up and I asked if I could take it away if I installed a modern replacement, they said yes and "what would you want with that old tat anyway!" Anyhow 26 years after I first saw it, it is now in my possession. I have an old LEC (London Electrical Company) wholesale book which lists current items for sale during the period 1959/60 The fitting is in this book and is titled the "Atlas kitchen light fitting" (I will try and picture and post tonight) I restored the fitting to former glory yesterday but don't have pics of the finished product to hand yet, below are a few of it in the unrestored state. Cheers Lee The pics are below
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Lee |
18th Oct 2011, 1:16 pm | #144 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Charmouth, Dorset, UK.
Posts: 3,601
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Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings
I didn't realise how inefficient mains ballasts were until I fitted 24v transistor units to my 2 x 4' fitting over my work bench and these were some Philips ones that I bought many years ago. I have a 24v wind turbine system which will provide emergency power for the house and run the workshop.
When running through the inverter this fitting drew about 5 amps with the electronic ones in place about two, admittedly the light is not quite as bright as on mains but you wouldn't know unless you directly compared it. The tubes seem to run more efficiently on RF. Peter |
18th Oct 2011, 1:31 pm | #145 |
Nonode
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: North Somerset, UK.
Posts: 2,129
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Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings
Yes fluorescent lamps are more efficient at high frequencies.
Battery operated fittings were often more efficient than mains copper/iron ballasts. These days, most new fittings use electronic ballasts that have lower losses and drive the tube more efficiently. For example a 58 watt tube on a copper iron ballast might use 65 watts in total, with 7 watts lost in the ballast. An electronic ballast might drive the lamp at only 55 watts for the same light output, and have 3 watts ballast losses, giving a total wattage of 58 watts. For everyday lighting of modern workplaces I would recommend modern lamps on electronic ballasts. If one desires to use old or vintage fittings in the home, or for historical accuracy in working museums and the like, it would be sensible to stock up on old type lamps. Older types of lamp will normally work fine on a modern electronic ballast. Older ballasts, unless of the switch start type, won't normally work a modern lamp. |
18th Oct 2011, 2:18 pm | #146 |
Dekatron
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Derby, UK.
Posts: 7,735
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Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings
Wirewound ballasts are highly inductive, and so will give you a lagging power factor -- which, in domestic installations, usually goes uncorrected since the unequal-length distribution cables have their own influence of PF. Just because something is pulling plenty of milliamps, doesn't mean they are all going to end up as watts!
And more than one lighting salesperson has confirmed to me that a bad switched-mode ballast is less efficient than a good wirewound one. Which is not to say that there aren't plenty of bad wirewound ballasts out there.
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18th Oct 2011, 4:16 pm | #147 |
Heptode
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Cheltenham Spa, Gloucestershire, UK.
Posts: 525
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Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings
I used to wire these up ( starterless ballast) for London Underground when I worked at Earls Court new works in the 1980s with 3 on 3-phase, and the 4th one being a battery unit so if all current ceased, every 4th flourescent would still be lit. The battery units were wired from any phase convenient.
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18th Oct 2011, 6:25 pm | #148 |
Octode
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Wimborne, Dorset, UK.
Posts: 1,407
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Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings
Hi all,
Here are some pics as promised, the first 3 show the book advertising the fitting for sale in. I'm also after a spare starter lamp to keep the fitting in service for a long while if anyone can please help? See here:- https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=75335 Cheers
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Lee |
18th Oct 2011, 6:27 pm | #149 |
Octode
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Wimborne, Dorset, UK.
Posts: 1,407
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Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings
.... and here are the pics of the restored fitting showing it on startup.
I think it looks cracking in the workshop. Cheers
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Lee |
18th Oct 2011, 11:25 pm | #150 |
Octode
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Wimborne, Dorset, UK.
Posts: 1,407
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Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings
I measured the current usage on this fitting as it is completely non inductive and the result was 480mA which works out at 113 watts! Quite inefficient for a 40 watt tube!
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Lee |
19th Oct 2011, 12:29 pm | #151 |
Octode
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Bath, Somerset, UK.
Posts: 1,804
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Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings
That starter lamp is quite something! It appears to be brighter than the tube itself. Very nice fitting in an appropriate setting.
Neil
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preserving the recent past, for the distant future. |
19th Oct 2011, 1:04 pm | #152 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,528
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Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings
Presumably the starter lamp doubles up as the ballast for running. I guess that if the tube is about four times as efficient as incandescent, the whole shebang is still about twice as good. And a bulb would have been a good bit cheaper than an inductor.
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19th Oct 2011, 2:24 pm | #153 |
Octode
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Wimborne, Dorset, UK.
Posts: 1,407
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Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings
Hi,
Yes the lamp fillament is the ballast resistance, there is a starter switch in the base of the lamp too as it has four connections. I have attached the circuit of how it is all wired and a pic of the ballast lamp. Cheers
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Lee |
19th Oct 2011, 3:58 pm | #154 |
Dekatron
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Derby, UK.
Posts: 7,735
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Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings
That makes no sense! The usual type of starter uses the high voltage kickback from interrupting the current in a coil (which there isn't, here) to ionise the gas in the tube into conducting. Where does this setup get the ignition voltage from?
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If I have seen further than others, it is because I was standing on a pile of failed experiments. |
19th Oct 2011, 5:32 pm | #155 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,528
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Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings
With the tube heaters warm, presumably the jump from 0 to 340ish peak at the instant of starter opening was enough to strike the tube, given that there would be thermionic emission from the heated electrodes. The bulb would thereafter limit the current. I guess the bulb characteristics were determined by experiment initially, but nothing would change much once in production.
Don't some older cheap fluoros use a ballast capacitor- which wouldn't give a voltage kick either, but would still be more efficient than the bulb and cheaper than an inductor.
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19th Oct 2011, 7:41 pm | #156 |
Octode
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Wimborne, Dorset, UK.
Posts: 1,407
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Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings
These old T12 tubes seem to just want to strike effortlessly, not like the modern stuff!
We have many 2' 20 watt and 2' 40 watt T12 fittings in the school where I work and they happily strike up even with the starters removed! The fitting concerned is designed to take the old type fluorescent lamp that has the conductive stripe on the tube connected to each endcap I believe as the endcaps of the tube are earthed by sprung brass strips to aid starting in cold weather. Cheers
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Lee |
19th Oct 2011, 10:19 pm | #157 |
Nonode
Join Date: May 2006
Location: St Albans, Herts, UK.
Posts: 2,193
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Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings
What an unusual fitting and the perfect light source for your vintage workshop though where you could get a replacement ballast lamp is anyone's guess!
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All the very best, Tas |
20th Oct 2011, 10:18 am | #158 |
Nonode
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: North Somerset, UK.
Posts: 2,129
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Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings
No inductive surge is required to start the older type T12 lamps.
They start fine from line voltage, with either a resistance ballast as in this case, or a transformer start ballast. For reliable starting, the cathodes need to be hot. The lamp might well start with cold cathodes, as in the case of a switch start fitting with the starter removed, but this is not to be relied on. More modern types of T8 lamp wont start reliably without either a high voltage pulse from the opening of a starter with a series choke, or from an electronic ballast that supplies a high starting voltage. |
20th Oct 2011, 2:26 pm | #159 | |
Rest in Peace
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 2,508
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Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings
Quote:
Perhaps you can make a substitute Starterlamp and put the original one away for safekeeping. A dead 4-pin starter with the case opened out, a new glow tube from a modern starter and a suitable lamp, the rating of which could be determined by running the original lamp from the mains or a variac if it is suspected to be rated for a maximum of less than 230V. Lucien |
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20th Oct 2011, 2:51 pm | #160 |
Octode
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Wimborne, Dorset, UK.
Posts: 1,407
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Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings
Hi Lucien,
In my lunch break I went to my stores, grabbed a new 4' 40w tube, a glow starter switch and a 100w & 40w GLS lamp. I wired everything up just with the 100w bulb to start with and the the 100w bulb flickered but the tube would not strike, I now put the 40w bulb in too so totaling 140w and the tube struck up! I am thinking of using a 150w bulb and starter switch to replace the ballast lamp. Please see this thread also for something I require :- https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...618#post473618 Cheers
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Lee |