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20th Jul 2014, 9:19 pm | #1 |
Dekatron
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Hot 'hide glue' for wooden cabinet repairs
Do any Forum members use hide glue for woodworking and veneer repairs, particularly on radio cabinets? It would seem to have ideal properties for such work, and could indeed have been used to assemble cabinets in the early days of wireless.
As a 'traditional' material it should not suffer from the reduction in effectiveness so often levelled at other products, such as adhesives, paints and paint strippers, as a result of the tightening H&S and anti-pollution legislation currently being discussed elsewhere on this section of the Forum. The idea of a warm glue pot quietly simmering away, heated on one of my vintage paraffin stoves in the corner of my workshop on a winter's day, somehow has a nostalgic appeal!
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20th Jul 2014, 9:34 pm | #2 |
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Re: Hot 'hide glue' for wooden cabinet repairs
... not to mention a nostalgic aroma too.
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20th Jul 2014, 9:42 pm | #3 |
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Re: Hot 'hide glue' for wooden cabinet repairs
Mmm, I've read about that... could be a downside
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20th Jul 2014, 9:43 pm | #4 |
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Re: Hot 'hide glue' for wooden cabinet repairs
Yes, I use hide glue, which I heat up in a proper two-part glue pot and use a cheap thermostatic electric hotplate to control the temperature. Frankly, for the odd job a couple of tin cans - one a good bit larger than the other, with water in the outer can and the pearls of hide glue in the inner one would suffice if you want to give it a go. I don't do a lot of veneering though, and I have to say that using hot hide glue is messy, fiddly and smelly.
Not sure if you are aware, but Titebond (famous for their alphatic resin glue often nicknamed 'yeller' due to its colour, albeit it sets clear), also make a cold hide glue that you can use straight from the container. Using hot hide glue is an acquired skill, especially to cover a large area and you need an electric iron, though not too hot or it draws the glue through the veneer and all over the base of the iron with interesting results. I've got a couple of two-part glue pots - a larger cast iron one and a smaller pressed steel one. See pic below. In woodworking circles Titebond liquid hide glue seems to be highly regarded and might be a batter alternative: http://www.restexpress.co.uk/acatalo...7pgRoCd1nw_wcB Hope that helps a bit.
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David. BVWS Member. G-QRP Club member 1339. |
20th Jul 2014, 9:46 pm | #5 |
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Re: Hot 'hide glue' for wooden cabinet repairs
Hi Phil
Yes I have used it for over 30 years, starting with when I was an apprentice cabinet maker at age 16. Frankly I wouldn't use anything else. Why do you ask? Nick |
20th Jul 2014, 10:02 pm | #6 | ||
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Re: Hot 'hide glue' for wooden cabinet repairs
Quote:
Quote:
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20th Jul 2014, 10:07 pm | #7 |
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Re: Hot 'hide glue' for wooden cabinet repairs
I think you can get it in 'glue sticks' for hot melt glue guns.
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20th Jul 2014, 10:15 pm | #8 |
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Re: Hot 'hide glue' for wooden cabinet repairs
Ah, glue sticks... I've had a hot glue gun for years, yet I have never really been satisfied with it. The stuff leaves annoying strings behind it, it's too thick and viscous to fill gaps, it solidifies too quickly for many purposes, and its long-term adhesion is debatable. It's probably OK for arts and crafts and similar lightweight purposes, but leaves a lot to be desired for proper work where strength and durability are needed.
In the past I've used Cascamite to good effect, and now mainly resort to PVA, but I'd like to learn more about traditional adhesives and techniques for woodworking and repairs.
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20th Jul 2014, 10:23 pm | #9 |
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Re: Hot 'hide glue' for wooden cabinet repairs
Hi Phil
It is almost certainly true that pearl glue (also known as hot hide) would have been used widely in the construction of early wood casement radios. It was the standard glue. FYI it's kept warm in a double boiler on a hot metal ring, not on a naked flame and it is very safe in that respect. By adding more water to replace evaporation it can be kept at the right viscosity. It can also be cooled and reheated once or twice before it loses it's properties. There is divided opinion about the ready mixed cold hide glue. Personally I don't rate it and I wouldn't recommend it. Pearl glue is, in fact, very easy to use. Excess is easy to remove. It can be rubbed off with the finger at the 'rubber' stage, or it can be wiped off with a damp cloth, or sanded away. The glue doesn't stain wood like most other glues do either. It can also be colour dyed and mixed with sawdust to make a brilliant filler. It's not a one chance only glue either. Once applied by carefully applying heat, and/or hot water, it can be unstuck, readjusted and re-set. For veneer work there is nothing better. Lightly coat the cabinet and also the veneer. Apply the veneer to the cabinet and using a non-steam iron on a warm setting apply heat. The veneer can then be moved about. Once in the correct position, using a veneer hammer you simply apply pressure to squeeze out any excess glue/ air for a perfect join and seal. The glue is not affected by central heating or by damp. It is strong and flexible too, which is why it was used for furniture construction for hundreds of years, and finally it has great gap filling properties too. Am I a fan? I'll let you decide Nick |
20th Jul 2014, 10:41 pm | #10 |
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Re: Hot 'hide glue' for wooden cabinet repairs
Nick, I think it's patently obvious that you're a fan...!
Thanks very much for that interesting information. I'm encouraged to have a go. As David says, a small tin can inside a large tin can would probably be sufficient for starters. The pearl glue itself is readily available on the 'net.
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21st Jul 2014, 10:11 am | #11 |
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Re: Hot 'hide glue' for wooden cabinet repairs
I use a small thermostatic electric hotplate like this one - cheap enough at £11.99 post free:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/VonShef-Elec...XV67RXRR1RWVRT The thermostatic control has six settings (from 0 to 5) in order to know every time how high or low the heat is. It has non-slip feet, a power-on neon indicator light, an automatic safety shut off function, and overheat protection. Power: 1500W die-cast iron heating element, AC 230V 50Hz. Size: 25 x 25 x 7.5cm, Hotplate Diameter: 19 cm / 7.48 inches. As to using a tin can in which to place the pearls, that's fine, but on an electric hotplate for the thermostatic function to work the water pan needs to be flat on the bottom to make good contact and a reasonable diameter - say 4 inches, so a small saucepan would be ideal for that, but not one from the kitchen I should stress, or the papers will be in the post! You need a veneer hammer to smooth down the veneer - you can buy them of course but they're not difficult to make - I made a couple - I used a strip of 2.5mm thick brass for the blade inserts and made the hammers from beech. They're not used as 'hammers' of course but as 'squeegees' - they're called 'hammers' because in the early days cabinet makers improvised by used their hammers to smooth down the veneer. My other hobby is woodturning/woodworking so I turned the handles on mine on the lathe, but a veneer hammer doesn't need to be that fancy - just a piece of sharpened broom handle would do. Have fun!
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David. BVWS Member. G-QRP Club member 1339. |
21st Jul 2014, 10:25 am | #12 |
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Re: Hot 'hide glue' for wooden cabinet repairs
I have used bottled 'liquid hide glue' in the past but found it had a short shelf once opened. Far more sensible to stick to Scotch/pearl glue as and when... only that too doesn't like being 'reheated' too often.
The downside to animal glues is that the furniture beetle larvae love it! As to double pans use a proper cast alloy inner pan - a tin can will rust in time and react with the glue. If its worth doing, it's worth doing properly! |
21st Jul 2014, 5:08 pm | #13 |
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Re: Hot 'hide glue' for wooden cabinet repairs
If using a tin can (anything with an air gap twixt pate and bit to get hot) on a hot plate, blacken the bottom with a candle flame, make a great difference.
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21st Jul 2014, 6:57 pm | #14 | |
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Re: Hot 'hide glue' for wooden cabinet repairs
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BTW, for just over a tenner that's a great hotplate you found too! Nick |
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21st Jul 2014, 7:41 pm | #15 |
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Re: Hot 'hide glue' for wooden cabinet repairs
The only type of glue that I use. I'm fairly certain that the type of glue sold as 'Pearl glue' is actually Bone glue. Hide glue is a little different, although it performs pretty much the same. I think Hide is usually stronger and is available in different strengths - known as the bloom or gram factor. Stronger types can actually etch glass. For wood I use 220G high clarity hide glue. Touchstone tonewoods in Surrey do a good 'Cologne Glue' (mixture of both pearl and Hide). They normally sell to Violin/Guitar makers, some of whom still use this type of glue.
Either Pearl, Hide or a mixture are certainly suitable for gluing wood/veneer. I use a baby bottle warmer as my double boiler. Accurate enough to maintain the 145F temperature needed for these types of glue. The inner container is just a glass jar. If I need a larger quantity of glue I just swap the jar for something larger. For even larger jobs I have two bottle warmers on the go - they are cheap enough to buy s/h. Just note that some baby bottle warmers don't quite reach 145F, so there will be a greater chance of the glue gelling. Going above 145F and the glue increasingly becomes weaker. It may also effect the glue bonds longevity. We do know that these types of animal glue bonds can last for hundreds of years, perhaps thousands. Plenty of examples of centuries old furniture/musical instruments around that were glued with Hide/Bone glues. If you want a glue with a very long open time there is liquid Fish Glue. Similar to liquid Hide glue but has a much better reputation and of course can be used straight from the bottle. Like Hide/Pearl glue it can be solved with heat/water. It seems to have a pretty long shelf life as I've used it after it has been sat on a shelf for 3 years. Not much good for veneering unless you are using cauls and are prepared to leave it clamped for 24 hours. Unfortunately it isn't widely available at all and I have to import it from Germany. http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g1...al/gluepot.jpg |
21st Jul 2014, 8:45 pm | #16 |
Hexode
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Re: Hot 'hide glue' for wooden cabinet repairs
I use pear croid and rabbit glue still the same as my great great grandfather used. The best glue around and any rework or mistakes can be rectified using steam or hot water to the joint.
Regards Robin |
21st Jul 2014, 9:10 pm | #17 |
Heptode
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Re: Hot 'hide glue' for wooden cabinet repairs
Who's your supplier Robin?
Nick |
21st Jul 2014, 9:32 pm | #18 |
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Re: Hot 'hide glue' for wooden cabinet repairs
Pearl glue is widely available from lots of suppliers Nick. EG: here's a link to Liberon pearl (bone & hide) glue on Amazon. (£5.31 for 250g):
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Liberon-LIBP.../dp/B001GUA7LA
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David. BVWS Member. G-QRP Club member 1339. |
21st Jul 2014, 9:48 pm | #19 | |
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Re: Hot 'hide glue' for wooden cabinet repairs
Quote:
Strength of animal glues is generally measured in 'bloom'. This is the weight in grams required to crack set glue with a probe. Rabbit glue can be 500g or more, whereas a good pearl (hide/bone) glue is generally around 30% less (350-400g). Whichever you opt for, rabbit, bone, hide, there really is nothing better than hot animal glue. It is recorded that the ancient Egyptians used it and the furniture pulled from the tombs is still as solid today, 2000 years on, as it was when it was made. It's also used from everything from preparing oil painting canvasses to food. Yes, gelatine is an animal glue I implore (ok, encourage) you restorers to use it as a first choice. Just think about your application and choose the type with the properties according to your needs. Nick |
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21st Jul 2014, 9:50 pm | #20 | |
Heptode
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Re: Hot 'hide glue' for wooden cabinet repairs
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Nick |
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