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Old 23rd Sep 2017, 1:16 pm   #1
Argus25
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Default Philips PM5519 Pattern Generator runs out of water.

I'm sure this is all too familiar. I was working on a project with a video monitor and to confuse issues the workshop equipment starts to malfunction. A PM5519 video pattern generator has 100Hz ripple in its video signal. So I drop what I'm doing and disassemble it. The ripple is on the 5V rail and I notice in the past I had replaced the "in line bridge" rectifier assembly. This time the 2200uF 16V filter electro, on the input to the 5V regulator had failed and the voltage was dipping low enough to put 100Hz ripple in the 5V output.

On testing this capacitor (Valvo brand not Philips but still blue) it read 1700uF, and ESR of 3.5 Ohms (way too high). No sign of bulging at the end, no sign of liquid electrolyte leaking out of it either. So I opened it up, as I always do, for a forensic inspection. No sign of corrosion inside and perfect insulation & foil, only thing being the paper insulation was as dry as parchment paper.

Despite the good looking rubber seal, water had abandoned the capacitor.

Whether the H2O molecules left directly over time, or some in the form of hydrolysed H2 and O2 gas, I do not know.

Then it occurred to me that if this was the case and just water alone had left and no electrolyte solutes, if I added the water back in, the capacitor should return to normal.

So I placed it in a glass of de-ionized water for a few minutes to thoroughly wet it and slipped it back into the metal can and left it for 6 hours. On testing the uF value read 2300 and the ESR dropped back to a respectable 0.06 Ohms. So the capacitor in this case simply "ran out of water"

This means of course it would have been possible to repair it easily with a small hole drilled in the metal end and introducing a little water with a syringe & needle and sealing that with some epoxy resin.

It just goes to show that longer lasting electros, among other things, must have better water/gas seals.
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Old 23rd Sep 2017, 7:26 pm   #2
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Default Re: Philips PM5519 Pattern Generator runs out of water.

Restuffing electrolytics is one thing, but repairing them takes it to another level!
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Old 23rd Sep 2017, 9:19 pm   #3
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Default Re: Philips PM5519 Pattern Generator runs out of water.

Sticking in some more distilled water sounds good, but you'd also want to find and repair the leak via which the original water did its vanishing act.

Dunk it in hot soapy water and look for bubbles?

Tiny puncture repair outfit, finished off with French chalk?

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Old 23rd Sep 2017, 9:31 pm   #4
Argus25
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Default Re: Philips PM5519 Pattern Generator runs out of water.

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Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler View Post
Sticking in some more distilled water sounds good, but you'd also want to find and repair the leak via which the original water did its vanishing act.
It was obviously an extremely slow leak, not enough to let out any liquid, just gases I think. I'm guessing the electrolyte was hydrolysed away over time much like it does with a lead acid battery when its charging. It also made me wonder about the notion of attempting to re-form electrolytics, when if they go super dry like this one did, it would be much better to add water instead.This also might explain why electros that have not had much use seem more often ok compared to those with light duty over the years.

One thing I note with caps like this, they feel light in the hand compared to a new one and they have definitely lost mass.

Probably if the end with the rubber seal was varnished over it might help seal the micro-leak.
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Old 24th Sep 2017, 12:53 am   #5
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Default Re: Philips PM5519 Pattern Generator runs out of water.

I wonder if the "Valvo" caps were actually Philips made- after all, Philips made Valvo valves. I've recently been working on a piece of kit with Roederstein electrolytics that appear to be identical to classical Philips axial elkos- lead welds, can crimping, translucent spiral-wrap sleeve, font style- except that that sleeve is a fetching Lucozade orange in colour, rather than blue.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a slow loss of water through even apparently effective seals long-term, after all the volume is low and water is a volatile substance- in open air it vanishes very quickly when it's even slightly warm! I'm wary of the whole business of trying to reform/otherwise recover elderly electrolytics, after all they're comparatively cheap and ones in PSU positions could destroy a tricky-to-replace transformer. I know the originality debate is a perennial and intractable one, but new capacitors neatly fitted in venerable kit give me a feeling of confidence and if the original designers could have used the types available now, they'd probably be delighted at the size/performance/price revelation.

Talking of "light" electrolytic capacitors, does anyone else recall the light purple sleeve Dubiliers of the late '70s/ early '80s? (I think a lot of "RS" badged ones in that colour were Dubiliers).They just felt instinctively wrong to me, they were so light, but I'm sure that if they were particularly troublesome, a lore would have developed around them. I think we develop an instinct for how heavy something "ought" to be approximately based around water's SG- moving away from electrolytics, PCB-filled capacitors can feel strangely heavy.
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Old 24th Sep 2017, 1:53 pm   #6
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Default Re: Philips PM5519 Pattern Generator runs out of water.

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Originally Posted by turretslug View Post
Talking of "light" electrolytic capacitors, does anyone else recall the light purple sleeve Dubiliers of the late '70s/ early '80s? (I think a lot of "RS" badged ones in that colour were Dubiliers).They just felt instinctively wrong to me, they were so light, but I'm sure that if they were particularly troublesome, a lore would have developed around them. I think we develop an instinct for how heavy something "ought" to be approximately based around water's SG- moving away from electrolytics, PCB-filled capacitors can feel strangely heavy.
Yes - I recently replaced half a dozen of them in a piece of equipment and then found the whole exercise was pointless because I'd misinterpreted the readings on my Toneohm. I thought the capacitors were short-circuit but a quirk of the Toneohm and the fact that the capacitors were a large value (1000uF) meant that I was actually seeing their ESR, more or less. The good quality modern ones (Panasonic FC, I think) that I replaced them with actually had a slightly higher ESR!

The purple Dubiliers have gone back into the spares drawer. I think they're in excellent condition considering their age.

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Old 24th Sep 2017, 2:25 pm   #7
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Default Re: Philips PM5519 Pattern Generator runs out of water.

It's about immortality in the end. Everything has a life cycle which we can cheat only so far, however we try. Even the best components eventually succumb to the inevitable.
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Old 24th Sep 2017, 3:53 pm   #8
dazzlevision
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Default Re: Philips PM5519 Pattern Generator runs out of water.

"I wonder if the "Valvo" caps were actually Philips made- after all, Philips made Valvo valves. recently been working on a piece of kit with Roederstein electrolytics that appear to be identical to classical Philips axial elkos- lead welds, can crimping, translucent spiral-wrap, etc."

I think Valvo is to Philips (in Germany) as Mullard is to Philips (in the UK).
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Old 24th Sep 2017, 11:17 pm   #9
Argus25
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Default Re: Philips PM5519 Pattern Generator runs out of water.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC/HL View Post
It's about immortality in the end. Everything has a life cycle which we can cheat only so far, however we try. Even the best components eventually succumb to the inevitable.
I guess that is true.

On the other hand it appears that electrolytic caps are grossly out of step with the life cycle of practically every other electronic component. At least 9/10 faults or close in aged (30 year old) semiconductor gear are failed electrolytic caps and they can take out other parts when they leak.

Currently I'm working on a 30 year old video monitor; each high capacity capacitor is an axial tantalum. These have been sealed at the ends with a type of glassy hard resin, very similar to that used to seal lead wires in TO-3 transistors, rather than the folded over aluminium lip and rubber disc seal of the electrolytic cap. The Tants all test perfectly with no sign of degradation. I wonder if the electrolytic cap was sealed this way we might have a lot less trouble with them, but I guess that would have also increased the initial cost.

(Also I noticed recently that if a typical radial electrolytic capacitor has leaked in the past, but its not obvious looking at it, it renders the rubber base seal plug conductive. So if the meter probes are placed on the rubber it conducts. This is then a clue that there is electrolyte on nearby pcb tracks that can cause faults. Also this invisible surface electrolyte, especially on boards with a matt conformal coating, won't clean off with contact cleaner, but will with hot water).

Last edited by Argus25; 24th Sep 2017 at 11:27 pm.
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