Talksport echoing on 1089 and 1053kHz MW

[colourking]

Just by accident yesterday discovered that there's a severe echo problem on Talksport's main AM frequencies 1089 and 1053kHz (275 and 285 metres) . It seems some of its major transmitter(s) are currently fed programme audio approx 1 second behind other (major) transmitter (s) leading to very noticeable echoing in many areas (where no transmitter is dominant) especially at night and around dawn/dusk.
I know they can play out separate ads/travel news in different regions, however apart from that the programme audio should be in synch.
From where I am I think Washford 1089kHz is 1 second ahead of Brookmans Park (London) 1089kHz, obviously other transmitters also affected with echoing on 1053 also.

Cynics might even suggest it is deliberate to help nudge listeners to DAB (though unlike BBC R5 Live, they still promote their 2 main AM frequencies on-air)

Maybe one of the feeds has broken and they are using a different one with more lag (dab/satellite/line) they are all about a second apart.

[paulsherwin]

Most UK listeners will have a dominant transmitter on one of the frequencies so this effect will be much less obvious for them. I don't think this transmitter network has been properly synchronized since the days it was putting out BBC R1 so I'm not surprised it sounds pretty awful via sky wave in Cork.

[terrybull]

I too get this echo here in the east Midlands. I can almost null out the echo by turning the set but it does have a ferrite rod aerial. This may not always be conveinient or possible on long wires.

[hannahs radios]

Hello I notice that echo on Talk Sport on both their frequencies. I've also noted it on Absolute Radio on 1197 kc/s but not on 1215.

['LIVEWIRE?']

It 'sounds' as if the 'echo' is caused by a slight delay in reception of the programme from the nearest transmitter, and the same signal from a more distant one on the same frequency. I haven't noticed it here, though it will almost certainly be present in locations some distance from any transmitter, such as in the west of Ireland, for example. I read, some years ago, that, in the USA (don't remember whereabouts), it was possible to receive WCBS New York, with a faint 'echo' of the same programme coming from KCBS in San Francisco. If this was true, it would be a very long distance example of the phenomenon.

[russell_w_b]

Originally Posted by 'LIVEWIRE?'

It 'sounds' as if the 'echo' is caused by a slight delay in reception of the programme from the nearest transmitter, and the same signal from a more distant one on the same frequency.

I think it's more likely to be a programme feed issue, given that 1 nanosecond propagation delay equates to about a foot in distance. That makes it a hell of a long way between transmitters and listener to get the sort of delays being talked about here!

That sort of thing used to happen on the HF bands where one signal travelled the world on a multi-hop path and the other was a one-hop reception.

As a guide the moving of MSF from Rugby to Anthorn gave a one millisecond extra delay to here (Maidenhead, near London). Therefore I doubt it is the distance causing the echo. As a matter of interest it takes about 1/7th of a second for a radio wave to go round the earth, that is audible!

[Jonster]

TalkSport are currently upgrading the audio distribution and processing around their network apparently, one site at a time so these issues should disappear once all of the sites have been converted.

[Hybrid tellies]

This echo effect is not new. Down in west Cornwall back in the 1970's there was a very pronounced echo heard heard on Radio 1 on 247m during the evenings with more distant UK stations co channeling with the local Redruth transmitter. At the same location we used to enjoy good reception day and night of Radio 4 West on 285m from Start Point. In 1972 with the new Radio 4 England service Droitwich was moved from 276m to 285m this resulted in a slight but noticeable echo effect during the evenings due to the strong sky wave signal from Droitwich clashing with the strong ground wave signal from Start Point.
As the BBC used analogue landline or microwave links in the early 1970's, which had negligible time delays, I can only assume the echo effect was due to the slight time delay introduced by the longer sky wave path from Droitwich against the shorter ground wave path from Start Point.
This problem is much worse today as digital feeds to the transmitters can introduce considerable time delays as compared to the older analogue feeds.

[colourking]

Checked both frequencies within the past day and it appears the constant echoing is now gone

Jonster seems to have the correct explanation.

a couple of days ago I could hear significant echoing in the middle of the day on 1089 - where I am 1089 during daytime (no skywaves) is a mixture of Washford and Redruth transmissions, but no echos now, so one must have switched feed before the other. (When I first noticed the echo it was mainly there during skywave hours)

The echoing it has to be said is subjectively more annoying than hearing completely different music/speech from another station in the background.

BTW there is roughly 0.15 Hz of a difference of carrier frequency of the Redruth from Washford - this lead to the signal strength (with a mixture of both) rising - falling - rising over the course of 6 to 7 seconds (daytime). I count 9 fades over one minute, divide that by 60 gives 0.15 Hz difference. From what I recall this effect was not there when BBC R1 had the frequency - they had more precise control of the carrier frequencies.

[hannahs radios]

I can also confirm that the echo on Talk Sport is almost gone it sounds slightly hollow same as BBC Radio 5 on 909 kcs. Incidentally I can hear Romania underneath Radio 5 at dusk as well as on a few other channels.