706 problem

[Grant L]

Dear All,
I posted back in March describing a red telephone and asking if such a phone existed.
It was a red phone used in the late 60s Randall and Hopkirk TV programme.
I'd been searching on line for months trying to find one without really knowing anything about models and types of telephone.
It was suggested that it might have been one put together from bits of other phones then Russell said it sounded like an Ericsson N1901. I later did see one in black on ebay, but never a red one. Then, one day I finally came across a red telephone which looked like the one I was after.
It was in original, untouched condition, still connected to its red junction box.
It was filthy - looked like it had been stored in an old garage for decades. Looked underneath to discover it was a GEC 1K/ATS. (No date).
With a lot of on-line help, I stripped the phone down and cleaned all the plastic parts in soapy water. I was delighted to find under the grime a remarkably good condition telephone with hardly a scratch. I then gave the case and handset a good clean with brasso and the phone looked like new!
After a few weeks of just enjoying looking at it I bought a conversion kit.
I followed the instructions carefully and couldn't wait to try it. I plugged it into a socket and was relieved to hear a dialling tone. The phone worked perfectly. Not a crackle or hiss and the dial worked very smoothly. I could phone out and receive calls with no problem.
Then I hit the problem!
I plugged in my 'modern' phone which is a BT Graphite cordless phone which sits on an answering machine base and has 3 other handsets which sit on chargers around the house.
When I called my number using my mobile all the phones began ringing and the GEC telephone worked fine. I then tried phoning out using the GEC and as soon as I started dialling, the BT phones began ringing - not tinkling, but ringing as if someone was calling in. Continuing to dial the GEC I then get "the call cannot be taken at the moment....please leave a message". Then I get "number you have called is not recognised" This is actually recorded on the answering machine.
I tried a 746 which I recently bought already converted but hadn't got round to cleaning it and had never plugged in. This gave the exact same problem as the GEC. So can I therefore assume it is not a problem with the GEC phone?
Other information which might help. I have a BT line but get my internet/telephone from Talk Talk (was Virgin until they recently sold this part of their business). I have one ADSL filter which the BT base and router are connected to. The extension box into which I plugged the GEC does not have an ADSL. There are three wires behind the extension box.
Would be very grateful if someone could solve this problem!
I'll try attaching some photographs showing the TV telephone and the stages of cleaning the GEC.
Thanks
Grant

[ThePillenwerfer]

I avoid modern 'phones but I bet your cordless is running on two wires and interpreting the dial pulses as an incoming ringing signal.

How, and if, you can sort it out I've no idea.

- Joe

[TonyDuell]

Based on another thread here :

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=118103

relating to the telephone 746, it appears that if the dial is running a little too fast then the dial pulses can be mis-interpretted by modern telephones as a ringing signal. If the dial is running too slowly, the exchange won't recognise it.

You might try carefully spreading the arms of the governor in the dial to slow it down a bit. That other thread has suggestions for checking dial speed in the absence of a proper dial tester.

[julie_m]

If you have a 2-wire phone (i.e., one with its own ringing capacitor; note a 3-wire phone connected to an ADSL filter is effectively a 2-wire phone, since the filter regenerates the pin 3 ringing signal) sharing a line with a pulse-dial phone, then bell tinkling is simply inevitable on dialling out; the bell or tone ringer responds to changing voltages on the line, and the dialling pulses cause the voltage on the line to change.

With 3-wire working, pins 3 and 5 are shorted when any phone is off-hook; so the bells / tone ringers will see no voltage at all, even as the voltage on the line changes with the dialling pulses.

It ought to be possible to convert a 2-wire phone to 3-wire by fitting a new line cord, snipping out the old internal ringing capacitor (the side of the line that was connected to this capacitor wants to be pin 2) and connecting pin 3 to wherever the other end of the ringing capacitor used to have gone to. If the socket on the telephone motherboard has only 2 contacts, though -- and this is quite likely -- severe bodging will be necessary.

[andy1702]

I think it's either a tinkle being picked up and interpreted by your new phone as a ring signal so the tune starts playing, or it's a dial which runs back slightly too fast. However I doubt it's a fast dial because if it was, the phone probably wouldn't connect to the exchange. Can you unplug your modern phone and plug in the 746 in it's place. Then plug in the red phone and when you dial out see if the bell in the 746 tinkles. If it does, then that's your problem. If it doesn't then it could well be a fast dial and would need adjusting as Dave suggested.

I loved the original Randal & Hopkirk, hated the re-boot though.

Andy.

[Grant L]

Thanks to everyone who replied, I appreciate your time.
I don't think I'd have the confidence to make changes as Tony and Julie have suggested! If it's a case of the dial running too fast then that means both the GEC and the 746 have the same problem?
I tried what Andy suggested and this is what happens:
Unplugging modern phone and plugging 746 into ASDL filter and keeping GEC plugged into extension - dialling 746 causes GEC to tinkle BUT dialling the GEC does not cause the 746 to tinkle.
I then removed the filter and repeated this and their is NO tinkle when either phone is dialled.
Does that mean anything to anyone?
I take it from the number of conversions people make that it IS possible to have pulse and tone phones connected at same time or is it one or the other. I'd consider dial phones only but what about all the calls where you're asked to press 1 for this and 2 for that etc?
Thanks again
Grant

[ThePillenwerfer]

Originally Posted by julie_m

It ought to be possible to convert a 2-wire phone to 3-wire by fitting a new line cord, snipping out the old internal ringing capacitor (the side of the line that was connected to this capacitor wants to be pin 2) and connecting pin 3 to wherever the other end of the ringing capacitor used to have gone to. If the socket on the telephone motherboard has only 2 contacts, though -- and this is quite likely -- severe bodging will be necessary.

I had a look inside a modern two-wire cordless 'phone base and there's nothing that's obviously a ringing capacitor in it — my objective was to stop it from ringing, or should I say squawking. It seems like technology has moved on from such wonderfully simple methods.

- Joe

[AndiiT]

Originally Posted by Grant L

.....what about all the calls where you're asked to press 1 for this and 2 for that etc?.....

Hi,
In answer to your question Dialgizmo or (if you are happy modifying your phones) Rotatone will do the job

Regards

Andrew

[Grant L]

Thanks Andrew.
I see how this could be used to allow # and * .
Does anyone think these pulse to tone converters would fix the problem with the ringing phone?
Grant

[Dave Moll]

Originally Posted by Grant L

I take it from the number of conversions people make that it IS possible to have pulse and tone phones connected at same time or is it one or the other.

There is nothing to stop you having both LD and DTMF 'phones connected in parallel on the same line. Except when actually dialling, they look exactly the same to the line - any differences in what they otherwise present to the line would come from elsewhere in their design.

[Nickthedentist]

As Dave implies, many of us have both. I have a few historic, pulse-dial phones plus a modern, DTMF cordless setup for when portability, loudspeaking function or the dialing of long numbers is required.

[andy1702]

Originally Posted by Grant L

I tried what Andy suggested and this is what happens:
Unplugging modern phone and plugging 746 into ASDL filter and keeping GEC plugged into extension - dialling 746 causes GEC to tinkle BUT dialling the GEC does not cause the 746 to tinkle.
I then removed the filter and repeated this and their is NO tinkle when either phone is dialled.
Does that mean anything to anyone?

When you had both old phones plugged in were they both connected to a socket that had passed through an ADSL filter. You can do this by either plugging a filter into each socket on the wall and then plugging each phone into a filter or by using a master socket with a filter built in, so any extensions are already filtered.

Or is one phone through a filter but the other isn't?

Both phones need to have an input that has been filtered somewhere along the line.

[Grant L]

Thanks for the replies.
Andy - When I had both old phones plugged in there was no filter used and none of them tinkled - both worked perfectly.
I only have one ADSL filter which gave the results in the quote in your last post. Do you think a filter on both sockets might help?
I'll order one on line and try it out.

Thanks
Grant

[andy1702]

I'm no expert on this, but from what I gather there is an anti-tinkle wire in British telephone connections (the third wire that goes to the phone). An ADSL filter effectively severs this connection. So I'm not surprised you get no tinkle with no filter but you do get tinkle with just one phone filtered.

I think the solution would be to put your ADSL filter before both phones, so it filters them both but doesn't sever anything between them. So your setup should go master socket to ADSL filter then the phone output of the filter to an extension with your first phone then from that phone socket an extension with your second phone. So it should look something like this:-

MASTER SOCKET---- ADSL FILTER ---- PHONE 1 ---- PHONE 2

If I've understood the theory right then that should work. I'll stand to be corrected though as I'm still quite new at this telephony stuff.

Good luck!

Andy.

[Dave Moll]

Andy may be new to telephony, but that sounds spot on.

[julie_m]

But note that most plug-in microfilters only support an REN of 1. You really need a replacement NTE5 (master socket) faceplate for "whole house" filtering.

[Nickthedentist]

Like this: http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/prod...tion-xte-2005/

[Grant L]

Thanks Andy.
To add to the problem and to your possible solution -this is how my house is wired.
Two wires come into the house from a telephone pole into the kitchen and are found behind the kick board of the kitchen units. These two wires go into a master box. From the master box there are three wires which go to an electrical terminal block a few inches away. From this terminal block there are 5 cables in parallel running to 5 different extension boxes around the house (two bedrooms, living room, kitchen and den). Daisy chain wiring?
These cables run behind walls and under floor boards and are not seen.
I don't see how I can re-connect the boxes as you suggest.
Looks like I'll have to accept that I can only use my lovely red R&H phone to receive calls and not use it to call. This is a pity as my 9 year old daughter is fascinated by the old phone "is it really from the 1960s!" and loves to dial it (when its not plugged in) - as I do of course.
Thanks to everyone who has posted and if anyone can find an easy solution - if one exists- I'd be very grateful.
Cheers
Grant

[Dave Moll]

You don't say whether the master socket is the modern two-part (NTE5) type with a removable faceplate that reveals an internal test socket, with connectors for extensions in the section which unplugs, or is the older type where the faceplate comes away in one piece to reveal the incoming wires.

If you have the former, the solution is to replace the faceplate with one similar to this one (other suppliers are available). With the extension wiring connected to this faceplate, it will be downstream of the ADSL filter. If you have the older socket, it would first need to be upgraded - which, strictly speaking, needs to be done by a telephone engineer, no doubt at a ridiculous cost.

All this assumes that the master socket is accessible behind your kitchen units.

[andy1702]

As Dave says, all you need to do is insert an ADSL filter at your master box (before the terminal block where the wires branch 4 different ways). This would mean the ADSL signal is filtered from everything else in the house. The one slight drawback is you would either need to relocate your router to somewhere near the filter or run a cable to carry the ADSL to wherever your router is located. If everything is wi-fi then it's best and probably easiest to move the router.

A nice side effect of doing the work above is also that your broadband speed should increase a fair bit.

When you say 3 wires go from your master box to a terminal block, is this proper phone cable with 3 cores connected or 3 distinct wires?

If you could get a photo of the master box and the wires to the terminal block that would help us to advise you on exactly what you need. I'm pretty sure you should be able to get all your old phones to work fully without too much trouble though.

One other thing... If you and your daughter like playing with dial phones (and let's face it, who doesn't) have you thought about connecting them up to CNet? Also the way your house is wired lends itself to installing a PBX system, so each extension effectively gets it's own extension number. You could then phone from the bedroom to the kitchen etc. Hours of endless fun! They're easy to wire up and if you get one with at least two incoming lines it could be rigged so any phone in the house can be connected to both the CNet network and BT, just by choosing the line number you dial out on. I've just set up a similar system and it works well.

Andy