Industrial singer sewing machine problem.

[sparkymike]

I am restoring a Singer industrial sewing machine type 366K.
I can find zero information on the web about this model, so have been working out most of the details, playing it by ear so to say.
I am mystified by two posts around three inch diameter and about 3" long that hang down from the base casting under the front shuttle end. These posts don't seem to serve any purpose, as the alloy tray/oil sump that the machine sits in does nothing to locate the bottom ends of these posts and they just sit in mid air.
I will post a photo later.
I was a bit concerned about their function as one of them is loose in the base casting where a small portion of the hole in which it is fixed has broken away.
I can probably pin or screw the broken part back later but it will involve a certain amount of dismantling.
Mike.

[sparkymike]

Photo showing the two posts.

[Herald1360]

Are they just there to keep the "works" off the deck if the bare machine (as shown in your picture) were stood upright on a table?

Three inch diameter?

[mole42uk]

Originally Posted by sparkymike

I am restoring a Singer industrial sewing machine
<snip>two posts around three inch diameter and about 3" long

I must say I was a little puzzled until I saw the photograph. I suppose they are ¼" diameter, not 3".....

[Radio Wrangler]

Pivots for swing-out support arms? I think that sort of machine is supposed to hang off the end of a table. You can see how the bottom face of the casting is shaped to end before the active area of the machine. It will have to work on narrow leg and sleeve ends.

David

[mole42uk]

The two industrial Singers (one of which was of similar vintage to yours - I still have the motor) that I have had both fitted flush with the top of the table. There was a recessed cutout in the table into which the machine fitted, so those two legs wouldn't have had any function.
There may have been different tables for different uses though.

[Tom_I]

Lots of Singer industrial machines seem to have these rods, and I'm sure Herald1360 is right about them. When the machine is removed from the table or cabinet that it usually sits in, they allow the unit to stand level on a flat surface.

[sparkymike]

Hi, Thanks for input .
Yes I have come to the same conclusion that the legs are for keeping the machine level when out of the cabinet, probably when servicing.
I am having a problem with the length of stitch at the moment. I would have liked to have got a stitch pattern around 6 per inch, but at the moment, it is more than double that and the adjustment lever does not seem to alter things correctly. I will have to check that part of the machine later today.
It is the heaviest sewing machine I have ever restored so far and I have a chain hoist slung onto a rafter in the garage, in order to lift it in and out of the table.!!
It has an electric magnetic brake for the motor , which has a flywheel and clutch but that is not connected up. There is a four pin plug on the brake/clutch end of the motor, but apart from finding USA original patents for the motor assembly, I can find no service instruction manuals for it. Motor and clutch is a Quickstop Rotan made in Darmstadt in Germany. There is a small transformer mounted in the motor terminal box and I suspect that this powers the mag. brake, but all very vague at the moment.
Yes the posts are 3/8" diameter (Typo)!!

Mike.

[broadgage]

The small transformer MIGHT be for a light, often 12 volt, 17 watt, frosted reflector E27 base.
On other machines the light was worked from a tapping on the motor.

[paulsherwin]

Industrial machines aren't really suitable for domestic use, as their design priorities are completely different. They are designed to perform simple lockstitch sewing at a high constant speed for hour after hour, with near-instantaneous stopping and starting. As has been said, the older ones are incredibly heavy and intended to be permanently installed in a workshop or factory - they make the big cast iron domestics like 99s and 201s seem positively lightweight.

Almost no tailors, seamsters or dressmakers use industrials.

I only mention this because many people innocently assume that an industrial is just a higher quality or more robust version of a domestic machine (they often think of good domestics as 'semi-industrial', a meaningless term if ever there was one). This doesn't mean it can't be fun to repair and restore an old industrial of course.

[sparkymike]

I am using this for leather upholstery and car carpet binding, so should be ideal for that. Speed can be very high, but you can creep along very slowly if needed, but needs a light touch on the foot pedal.
The motor has a reduced size pulley on it, so the high speed has been cut down somewhat.
Sorted out the stitch per inch now and it will do around 6 per inch , which is what I needed it for. It will also go to 20 per inch.
Just need to sort out the magnetic brake and we are running.
Mike.

[sparkymike]

I did find out the purpose of the transformer.
This powers up a small DC motor that engages with the main motor in order to rotate it, so that the needle is in a raised position when machine is stopped. It would be been nice to have this working, but I don't have the associated control box for it.
Mike.

[paulsherwin]

Some people do use them for leatherwork, that's true, but again usually in a dedicated workshop rather than on the dining room table.

Glad you've sorted out the stitch adjustment.

[sparkymike]

Its definitely not in the house !!
It is next to the classic car for which I am doing the carpets etc.
Don't think it would be allowed in the dining room !!
As usually happens I have just been offered for free a Singer 201K of 1960's vintage, that may be more manageable
Mike.

[paulsherwin]

201s are great machines. The ones from the mid 50s onwards use a lot of aluminium so are relatively light for a full size machine. You can use those on your dining room table. You are lucky to get one for free, as they sell for £50-£100 if in good working condition, sometimes even more. They can cope with light leatherwork but not the really heavy stuff like saddlery or shoemaking, though you really need specialist machines for that sort of thing anyway.

I use a 1934 201K.

[sparkymike]

The mechanics of sewing machines fascinate me and the guys who first worked out how to do the stitching were pretty clever. Now are there any similar chaps here who can shed some light on the braking section of the motor on the above machine.? I have reason to believe that the motor originated on a Pfaff industrial machine about the same era as the Singer. There is a DC (I believe) motor at the clutch end that rotates the motor , when stationary so that the needle can be in a raised position when starting or at different heights if required.
There is a four pin plug on that motor and I suspect that two wires are for the motor and the other two may be for a electromagnetic brake.
Information on the net is sparse to say the least. I have considered contacting the Rotan motor co, in Germany , so that might be next step.
Mike.

[Station X]

I don't have specific knowledge of these motors, but I'd have thought a bit of continuity testing from the plug would locate the motor and magnetic brake windings. Maybe there is some kind of limit switch too, to make sure the motor is stopped at the right point. If the stop point can be changed there'll be some means of changing the operating point of the limit switch.

The motor and then the brake will need to be activated when the pedal is released. An auxiliary contact on the pedal? Not sure whether the magnetic brake would then be permanently energised or whether it would be released by some means.

You talk of a transformer to power the DC motor. Is there a rectifier as well?

Some of those brakes are also clutch, motor runs all the time, coil 1 engage motor, coil 2 brake or a single coil with run or brake as default.

[sparkymike]

Here is the general layout and a circuit.
Mike

[Nickthedentist]

Valves?!