BBC 2, 21:00 on 7/9/15 Gordon Welchman programme

[AC/HL]

I thought that was fairly common knowledge, that's how I've always understood it. The same applies to "Duty of Care" we all carry it whether specifically acknowledged or not.

[dave walsh]

I signed it myself when I was a Civil Service Clerk in the seventies. I wasn't happy doing it at the time! I don't think I've breached anything by telling you that but who knows? It may be that Mr Welchman was naive or made a bad judgement but individuals like himself and Turin who pioneered techniques that science benefit from today, should have been afforded more protection by our country which owed them so much. Anyone flying a Spitfire didn't face this double standard.
Dave W

[Karen O]

When I was young and green I worked with an ex-GCHQ guy. I naively asked him what he got up to there (not knowing how secret his work really was). He looked aghast, and rightly so, that someone would be so daft as to ask. His answer was commendably uninformative and, had I been older and wiser, I would have known that his answer was a polite way of saying 'get lost'.

I often wonder if there is a file on me because of that stupid question.

[bikerhifinut]

I had to sign the official secrets act when I got my "Restricted radiotelephony certificate" when I was a junior deck officer in the Merchant Navy, It must be a bit of a "catch all" as I was certainly not privy to any state secrets. I think it was to acknowledge that the content of any messages handled were not to be passed on to 3rd parties, bit barmy in a way as the very nature of radiotelephony meant the world and his mate could and probably was listening in...............................

And I also wondered about Tommy Flowers, but he did have a TV programme dedicated to his work.

Andy.

[Jeremy M0RVB]

Originally Posted by Karen O

I often wonder if there is a file on me because of that stupid question.

No, but there will be a file on you now because you mentioned it on the net

[dave walsh]

That's true but going public also offers a certain level of protection, as would not having any info anyway [perhaps]! The Bletchley people were extraordinarily loyal and dedicated but some were told that they might be eliminated if they spoke out which does tend to concentrate one's thoughts somewhat
Dave W

[dave walsh]

Watched this again tonight. My wife got very interested [maybe it was the Erroll Flynn aspect] but actually she could see that the Traffic Analysis techniques from the forties are is indeed still being applied to this day! Not many technological innovations can really claim that. Welchman got a very bad deal.
Dave W

[peter_scott]

Those keen to know more can read Gordon Welchman's book "The Hut 6 Story"

Emerald Coast Books
via
http://i.bookfinder.com/about/bookse...alibris_uk.gif
United Kingdom Softcover
Publisher: M. & M. Baldwin
PAPERBACK. Used - Good. B00HRF0N4E Thousands of transactions, 100% money back guarantee, Will ship immediately. £1,995.95

[Station X]

The price actually quoted is £1,384.01, which I assume is a conversion from US Dollars.

If I thought that price was for real I'd copy my own paperback edition and sell on the original!

[Station X]

Can this be true?

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/Se...+hut+six+story

[dave walsh]

Seems to be. I've seen it with other book items Graham. The World Wide market is like the Art World yet we are constantly told second hsnd books are worth nothing. Two copies went very cheaply on E-bay [just before the program aired]. I see Bletchley Museum had them at a reasonable £9 but are out of stock. It must be viable to get some more surely, although I was once amazed to see an author being promoted in Hastings [very low key] and the shop were unaware that he had just moved into the town. Perhaps we should all ask Bletchley when they will be getting more copies in?
Dave

[Bazz4CQJ]

Originally Posted by dave walsh

Welchman got a very bad deal.
Dave W

Is that really true? Isn't it the case that his book contained more valuable technical info than the more "historical" books that proceeded it? He had not sought clearance to release the book from Mitre nor NSA nor anyone in the UK. NSA had made it clear in advance that they were unhappy about his intention to publish.

He wasn't fined or jailed, and although he lost his security clearance, he was already 76 years old and working only on a consultancy basis, having retired several years earlier. I think it could be argued that he got off quite lightly, especially as he was then a US citizen. Turing and Oppenheimer were badly treated!

B

[Radio Wrangler]

Secrecy is genuinely necessary in a number of areas, but unfortunately members of governments and civil servants are quite ready to use legal enforcements of secrecy in order to prevent personal embarrassments becoming public. If ever found out this not only looks silly, it weakens the respect for the proper applications of these things.

The integrity with which Enigma, Colossus and Bletchley Park secrets were kept by so many people is particularly remarkable when you consider the visible acts of stupidity and untrustworthiness being perpetrated by various governments over the period. It should be remembered that there were politicians and civil servants who were competent and ethical, but the antics of the rest make so much more noise once word gets out.

Many technical things make poor secrets. People on 'the other side' can always develop them for themselves and may already have done so or have something better. Secrecy works both ways. The best that can be hoped for is a period of probable advantage.

Traffic analysis is something that we can all imagine and it would probably surprise all of us if various agencies WEREN'T doing it. It's reasonable to assume that the traffic generated by this posting is going to be screened in various ways. The sheer volume means that initial screening must be automatic and only things which meet certain criteria will make it as far as a human. I wouldn't see confirmation that everything was screened as having any surprise factor whatsoever and would wonder who such a revelation was being kept secret from? But things like what criteria are being screened for is a secret worth preserving.

Life was a lot simpler when we only had one enemy...

David

[dave walsh]

I take Baz's point about there being more info in Mr W's [1984] book perhaps and the overall need for secrecy mentioned by David but Welchman does seem to have been misled by the other books coming out much earlier and although he should perhaps have consulted the powers that be he was clearly shattered by his treatment, after dedicating his life to the service-a bit like the volunteers asked to leave the Bletchley Museum after many years hard effort.

I would have used the points about his age, health and isolation in the States as a defence had I been his Barrister but he didn't get a hearing.! The letter in the documentary made the attitude of the authorities here all too clear! I'm not sure it can be said that he got off all that lightly... as he died. If the Americans could in fact have prosecuted but chose not to, it was a point in their favour! Is it just a coincidence that two men [Turin/Welchman] who contributed so much to us all were treated very badly and then gave up? Very sad.
Dave W