Question: an outdoor workshop and heating.

[nutteronthebus]

A lot of information was covered in this post (cold shed blues) https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=90915

also in this one https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=76221


Dave

[FrankB]

I built a workshop/garage here about 20 years back. 34'X60'.
I installed 6" insulation in the walls and covered them with 1/2" drywall board.
Attic is covered with 10-12" insulation.
I also put in a huge propane furnace , ceiling mounted.
Sadly it eats lots of propane ($300.00 + a month) if you want to keep the temp at 60 or so during the winter. I seldom use it anymore.
Having lots of wood here, so I also put in small wood stove by the current work area. It takes 3-4 hoours to start getting the area warm, and I also put in a ceiling fan for heat circulation.
We were in the process of building an enclosed, heavily insulated workspace in the garage when Jillian was killed, and I have not done anything in there since.
I do have a couple of dehumidifiers in there running continually.
If you live in a damp area with lots of ground water, have your contractor put down visclene- plastic material- before pouring the concrete floor as a water barrier. I did not, and have still got moisture problems coming up thru the floor. Slowing down as the 'crete hardens though.
When I finally get done with the remodel, I will seal & tile the floor, and put an electric heater in the sealed area so I may be comfortable in the winter in there.

[paulsherwin]

34' by 60' would be a huge building by British standards and you won't find domestic outbuildings of that size here. It sounds like the sort of thing you'd find on a farm for storing machinery. Common domestic garden shed sizes are 6' by 4' and 6' by 8', and few forum members would have workshops larger than 10' square. Few garages are much bigger than this.

American houses tend to have huge dry basements which make excellent workshops.

[threeseven]

Also, that propane bill would probably be $3000 per month in the UK!

[Skywave]

All comments noted: thank you. I will file such for future reference.

Al. / April 12, '14 //

[Peter.N.]

My workshop was a sectional concrete garage about 16'x10', I divided it in half to give two 8'x10' sections. The inner one I insulated with 2" polystyrene boarded with hardboard, I also put polystyrene on he floor and covered it with floor grade chipboard. A loft was formed again with hardboard and stuffed with glass wool. the division was also made of polystyrene with hardboard on both sides as was the door.

For heating I have a small storage heater which will keep it comfortably warm until about 9.00pm with the heater set to minimum except in very cold weather. I use this building for many years to earn my living repairing TVs and it proved very comfortable and dry.

Peter

[Roger-M0TDM]

Been following this thread with interest.
I've got far to much test gear and I'm contemplating having an outside workshop in a shed on my back door.
The shed would be around 12 ft x6ft and an electric supply would be run in ,as I'm a qualified spark.
Looks like it's going to cost me as much as the shed to insulate and heat it.
Regards all Roger.

[Skywave]

Originally Posted by Roger-M0TDM

I'm contemplating having an outside workshop in a shed.
Looks like it's going to cost me as much as the shed to insulate and heat it.

Well, it's reassuring to know that I am not alone in pondering this matter.
However, that last sentence has me a bit puzzled, since the initial costs of building the shed and insulating it are one-off costs, but its heating costs are continuous. Perhaps I've misunderstood you.

Al.

[QQVO6/40]

An interesting thread.
I have a shed problem but on the opposite scale of things. My workshop gets way too hot in summer to work in. I sometimes have to put off things till later in the evening so it has cooled down. Printed circuit boards rarely do well with drops of perspiration dropped on them.
A friend of mine has adopted a novel approach to his hot workshop problem. He has acquired a refrigerated shipping container. Bought from a dealer in Sydney. It has had the refrigeration equipment removed from the back end of the container but is otherwise in good condition. His plan is to permanently seal the 2 main doors and to cut in a normal sized access door on one side. It is completely insulated to a high standard and he is in the process of fitting a reverse cycle air conditioner to the sheltered end of the container opposite the main doors.
I like his plan and I might just do it here.
Containers are big and heavy bulky things that would not suit a lot of properties but I know he has it and is progressing with his project so I thought I might mention it here as it may work for somebody in a colder climate.
The other thing is they are very hard to disguise. I mean a shipping container sitting in a back yard is quite difficult to hide. Maybe a skillion roof, trellis with thick vines and latticework? Would take a lot to keep the cook happy with it.

Oh well just my 2d worth.

Cheers, Robert.

[Peter.N.]

I bought my sectional concrete garage secondhand for very little money, you can transport the panels a few at a time in a van or large estate car.

Peter

[mark_in_manc]

Aye, my shed is someone's unwanted concrete sectional garage which was free so long as I removed it. If you're inventive and can improvise with an angle grinder, cold chisels, and lots of scrap wood, you don't have to put them back up in the shape they were designed for - just treat the components like a quick building material. Mine is now a trapezoid 12-ish x 8 to fit an odd shape site, and has extras like (if I may say so myself) a rather funky custom sliding door and bay window. All for free

[Peter.N.]

I reduced the size of mine just by omitting one set of panels and building a block wall with a door.

Peter

[Roger-M0TDM]

Originally Posted by Skywave

Well, it's reassuring to know that I am not alone in pondering this matter.
However, that last sentence has me a bit puzzled, since the initial costs of building the shed and insulating it are one-off costs, but its heating costs are continuous. Perhaps I've misunderstood you

Yes ,I see what you mean...it was an off the cuff response,tho not really wrong in its content if you think about it.
A newish shed 12x6 ft is gunna cost me the best part of £500 up for summat substantial not the thin wood type.
After you've put the shed in place,the electrics aren't a problem because I've got enough spares in my junk box ,tho I'd proberley buy a new split rail consumer unit.then buy the insulation for it,maybe heating costs for around 9 months of the year and your not really that far behind are you yes the hardware/insulation are one off costs,but when you've purchased these and if you have to pay for the electricity supply to go in...
Well do the maths..
Still want one tho,if not to stop the missis moaning !
Regards Roger

[threeseven]

Originally Posted by QQVO6/40

An interesting thread.
I have a shed problem but on the opposite scale of things. My workshop gets way too hot in summer to work in. I sometimes have to put off things till later in the evening so it has cooled down.
Cheers, Robert.

Just a though, how about a Safari Roof, as used to be an option on Landrovers? Or, more ambitious, a water cooled roof!!

[kellys_eye]

Too hot or too cold - both are functions of poor insulation.

Build your own shed using stock CLS and t&g boards. It will outlast anything you can buy and, if carefully chosen suppliers are used, be cheaper than anything you can buy too. Don't skimp on materials - it will come back and cost you ££'s in the future....

Draft plans for it using Google sketchup - it's real easy to use.

Build the shed with decent ground clearance and insulate under the floor using Celotex or similar SOLID insulation. Use DPM between the supporting timbers (in direct contact with the ground) and the frame of the shed.

Use P5 t&g floorboards. Rot proof to most levels.

Always use a waterproof membrane on the walls AND the roof prior to putting the roof covering on.

Fill the walls with glass wool and cover in OSB (ply if you can afford it) - having walls you can screw straight into is invaluable! Run all your supply cables on the SURFACE (trunking).

Use OSB on the roof before covering in corrugated sheets or (better) EDPM. Try to avoid felt if you can. Always fit guttering at the eaves.

Glass wool insulation in the roof is fine but solid insulation might be easier.

Fit QUALITY locks and an alarm.

If you have windows then it's not difficult to make them double glazed even using plastic but don't expect to keep them condensation-free!

If your shed has the space, consider a wood stove for heating BUT they need careful installation and a CO alarm. Cheapskate (like me) knock them up from old propane tanks!

If you've built your own you should a decent supply of off-cut wood to keep it heated for a few weeks!

Building your own shed is EASY, satisfying and makes you appreciate it and therefore care for it. It will last you a lifetime.

[greenstar]

Just to throw in a slightly alternative view, dampness by my understanding can be reduced by good ventilation. Many materials used for building and insulation do not breathe, sealing in moisture, requiring heating and fans to get it out. Breathable materials - there are sheet materials available - are like gortex when compared to a plastic bag. If designing from scratch I would use a straw bale structure and turf roof - extreme insulation. My very basic shed is a lot drier after installing larger south facing windows, solar gain very effective. A 'tromb wall' or lean to greenhouse can vent heat into a shed. A ceramic stove lit once a day gives out heat slowly over 24 hours. All these things reduce heating bills.

[majoconz]

Haven't seen any mention of a heat pump, or are they not yet common in the UK? Heating in the winter, cooling in the summer, de-humidifying all year round. The more modern ones are even more efficient, about 1kW in for 4kW of heat out and with anticipator controllers don't' have the overswings that the early ones exhibited. Work well in maintaining a 'background' heat and much cheaper to run than the old 'nightstore'. Newer ones are arriving here with WiFi remote temperature sensing so that you actually set the required room temperature, not inside the unit itself.
Of course I forgot that our houses are usually single storeyed wood framed rather than double brick cavity, so retrofit installation is considerably cheaper here.

[threeseven]

Very expensive in the UK and have had bad press due to devious selling methods.

[mhennessy]

Yes, pretty common in commercial applications, but rarely seen in domestic settings. I've heard of a few new builds where natural gas wasn't available. Unfortunately, the theoretical 1:4 (approx) is rarely met in practice, and fan noise is a problem in many places in our very cramped building plots, and the up-front costs are too high to get a decent return on investment. Personally, I quite like the idea of ground-source heat pumps, but again, too costly. Hopefully, that will change with time as the market grows.

A good friend of mine installed one in his workshop some 12 years ago, and it is able to serve as emergency heating for the house - as well as a/c during the summer. Because he did everything himself, it wasn't terribly expensive, but sourcing parts was tricky. A lot of the AHUs were rescued from skips on large industrial estates!

Of course, the result is warm-air heating, which has never been well-liked in the UK - my last house had this, and it was very crude with a noisy single-speed fan that cycled on and off every 30 seconds. Modern units are much better, but in the eyes of most of the UK population, warm-air has a bad reputation, sadly. But in a workshop, you do have to manage the air flow, unless you want papers and dust flying around everywhere! But done right, it can double as solder fume extraction

[mark pirate]

I Have tried a lot of heating solutions in the past, all of which have drawbacks.
Paraffin & bottle gas heaters cause condensation and can be costly to run.
Electric heaters are great, but also cost a lot to run, but don't cause condensation.
I recently got a woodburner fitted in the house, this is so efficient that I have not used the central heating all winter.
I have now fitted one in the garage, at a total cost of £220, it causes no condensation, and chucks out around 7Kw burning old pallet wood of which I can get free, just ask your local builders, they are only too happy to let me take them away!

Once I have fitted some decent insulation, it should retain most of the heat overnight.