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27th Sep 2017, 10:50 pm | #1 |
Octode
Join Date: Dec 2010
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European Black/Blue Mains Lead
I've just bought a SABA set with the old European black/blue two core mains lead.
Which colour was meant to be the 'Live' phase please? The set is wired Blue to the 'Live' and to the On/Off switch, Black to 'Neutral' and the onboard fuse. A simple question but on a quick search earlier today I saw two different answers from respected members, hence my confusion. Not that it matters which way around on this particular transistor set but it would be nice if someone has a definitive answer, if there is one. Thanks - Andrew
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27th Sep 2017, 11:19 pm | #2 |
Hexode
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Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead
I believe blue was neutral, black was live.
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27th Sep 2017, 11:57 pm | #3 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead
Blue is more likely to be neutral as it is here in the UK. The United states also have black as live. The fusing is another clue.
Old UK wiring was an exception but only with A red live. Last edited by Refugee; 27th Sep 2017 at 11:58 pm. Reason: clarity improvement |
28th Sep 2017, 12:22 am | #4 |
Octode
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead
Hello,
I found the table below on the internet and whilst it applies to fixed wiring it would appear that in much of Europe blue was neutral and black and or brown the live. (Under current European rules blue is neutral and brown, black and grey are the three live phase colours) Yours, Richard |
28th Sep 2017, 6:40 am | #5 |
Nonode
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Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead
That table is well out of date, Richard. The phase colours are no longer legal in the UK for instance. As I recall, in France blue is N, PE is G or G/Y, any other colour is L
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28th Sep 2017, 8:17 am | #6 |
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Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead
The table does say OLD colours...
But it's odd that for the UK, red and black power conductors are teamed with yellow/green striped earth. Surely all-green earth was contemporary? David
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28th Sep 2017, 8:30 am | #7 |
Dekatron
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Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead
I''ve got a cable here on a piece of kit colour-coded red yellow black. Much confusion !
Given that your radio was probably designed to work with and was originally supplied with a "Europlug" or the Europlug's locale-defined predecessor - both of which were non-polarised - I wouldn't worry too much about the issue when fitting a modern polarised UK plug. |
28th Sep 2017, 9:03 am | #8 |
Octode
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Gloucestershire, UK.
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Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead
Hello,
The original UK earth colour was green with red and black for live and neutral, hovever there was a period before harmonization when the earth colour was changed to green/yellow whilst retaining red and black for live and neutral. Yours, Richard |
28th Sep 2017, 9:37 am | #9 |
Dekatron
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Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead
Which was a boon to me as I couldn't tell the difference between the red and green wires.
Peter |
28th Sep 2017, 9:44 am | #10 |
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Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead
Ah!, thanks. I'd thought they all changed at once.
david
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28th Sep 2017, 7:03 pm | #11 |
Nonode
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Welwyn Garden City, Hertfordshire, UK.
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Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead
It's a misery looking at a house wired in Black & Blue when the the supply is 115V either side of Ground. Eventual solution was a long wire with protection resistor back to the Blue side of the fuse box.
Now you can go to each room (since star burst wiring) and find the swaps. That one is black but coloured blue (hot!), that one is blue but coloured black(cold). Oh yes and another thing. It has a bare copper earth wire - don't mind that. Then some types wrap over the conductors with aluminium foil. Thinking about that. So long as grounded - a good shield for mains borne Crud perhaps. Otherwise dangerous could touch anything. It means you will not find a cable alive or dead with a HI-Z detector unless you open a socket - all being well. You will find out all right if all is not well. Check first. <oh yes and just remembered - had your finger get a paper cut? That foil is guillotine standard. Put Blood bank on standby.> Last edited by Jon_G4MDC; 28th Sep 2017 at 7:21 pm. |
28th Sep 2017, 7:37 pm | #12 |
Hexode
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Weymouth, Dorset, UK.
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Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead
I agree its unlikely to matter which way round you wire it assuming its got a mains transformer and is not AD/DC technique. I do wonder why they put the fuse and switch in different poles just seem crazy to me. Incidentally I have a Racal frequency counter with red/blue/green colour code, red is live blue neutral and green earth, confirmed by opening it up to see what went where.
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28th Sep 2017, 8:13 pm | #13 |
Hexode
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Taunton, Somerset, UK.
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Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead
The answer is really in the question. Here the original request referred to a colour arrangement but as a single phase supply. We forget that distribution is undertaken using a 3 phase supply and do we really think that it would be blue for L1, L2 & L3?
The fuse/fuse link as stated earlier is usually the give away. |
28th Sep 2017, 8:39 pm | #14 |
Banned
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Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead
The last harmonisation to UK was 3 phases, black, brown, grey, Earth is green/yellow, neutral is blue.
This ties in with the German lead you have, black live which puts the fuse in the live, blue neutral which puts the switch in the neutral as was common in UK sets for some strange reason. If that lead had an earth, it would probably have been red! Which to some extent explains why there was harmonisation. USA use black as live too. But white neutral. Very obviously different colours if you accept that black and white are colours ( which they really are not! ) |
28th Sep 2017, 9:16 pm | #15 |
Octode
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Location: St Ives, Cambridgeshire, UK.
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Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead
My assumption before I made the initial search on here was Black 'Live'. However, that wasn't the way the mains plug was wired and it was that that started me searching on here and finding two different answers.
All rather a moot point I know for this transformer equipped sets operation but I thought it interesting to ask what the correct way around it was meant to be. Thanks for all the interesting responses. Andrew
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28th Sep 2017, 9:45 pm | #16 |
Dekatron
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Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead
I've seem modern appliances with a fuse in one pole and a switch in the other. It looks a bit ugly if you were brought up on the British system, but it saves a whole terminal and a few centimetres of precious wire. And at least when it's used with a reversible plug, you can be sure that one of them is in the live .....
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28th Sep 2017, 10:09 pm | #17 |
Dekatron
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Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead
I believe that on many radios and record players the switch was often placed in the neutral connection to reduce the possibility of hum being induced into the volume control which usually had the switch attached. Some sets had the switch on the tone control but the switch was usually in the live connection in that case as the tone control often didn't cause as much hum.
On sets with a 2 core mains lead and fitted with a 2 pin plug if was sometimes beneficial to try the plug both ways round to see which had the lower hum level. |
29th Sep 2017, 8:55 am | #18 | |
Dekatron
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Oxford, UK.
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Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead
Quote:
As vidjoman indicates - primary one way round has lower hum. |
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29th Sep 2017, 8:59 am | #19 |
Rest in Peace
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Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead
In Europe, a black/blue or black/grey flex would invariably have used the black as live (now officially called line). However, I have seen appliances that were commercially imported for sale in the UK, before the prohibition on selling anything but the 'correct' current UK colours, where the flex has been rewired internally to make it more nearly match UK practice. For example, a 1960s German-made slide projector from a respected manufacturer, with the then current black/grey/red flex, which would have been dangerous had the red earth wire been connected to the live pin of a plug. It has been reconnected to make red live, black neutral and according to the instructions the grey earth had a piece of green sleeving fitted. When I received it, the sleeving was gone, so the temptation was to wire it as per German practice until I checked, and the booklet confirmed the internal reconnection I found.
As mentioned above, historically there was much less reliance on a particular supply polarity outside the UK. Some localities derived single-phase supplies from delta 3-phase, making both legs were live wrt. earth, where there is no concept of polarity at all. |
29th Sep 2017, 9:26 am | #20 |
Nonode
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Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead
Yes, the assumption that live and neutral can reliably be distinguished, like in the UK, is very much the exception. In much of the rest of the world, it's just pot luck how the sockets are wired - even when they're 3-pin ones which can only fit one way round. This applies today as much as ever.
Chris
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