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Television Standards Converters, Modulators etc Standards converters, modulators anything else for providing signals to vintage televisions.

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Old 22nd Jul 2014, 7:32 am   #1
MarioMania
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Default PAL to NTSC RF Converter

I know there's alot PAL to NTSC AV Converters out there

Is there like one for RF Signals?

I have a Sega Master System 2 PAL-I

Is it possible to do it, Thanks
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Old 22nd Jul 2014, 9:01 am   #2
cmjones01
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Default Re: PAL to NTSC RF Converter

If you really want one box which will convert the RF output of your PAL-I console to NTSC, the easiest way to do it is probably to find one of the 'world standard' VCRs which used to be available. I think Panasonic and JVC made them, among others. The model number NV-W1 rings a bell, but I might be mistaken. I think some of these had multistandard tuners as well as standards converters built in.

However, there's probably an easier way. Many modern flatscreen TVs seem to be multistandard, so one might display the output from your console directly. Or find an old PAL or multistandard TV which will do the job. That will give much better results than converting to NTSC which will lose you a lot of image quality.

If you really want to do the conversion, check to see what baseband (non-RF) outputs the console provides. I think the Master System here in Europe had AV outputs, but I might be mistaken. Most consoles did, because the French market would otherwise have required a SECAM encoder and associated modulator and that wasn't worth the effort.

Alternatively, a quick Google for 'Master System 2 AV output' shows various mods which look simple enough.

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Old 22nd Jul 2014, 11:20 am   #3
colourking
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Default Re: PAL to NTSC RF Converter

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarioMania View Post
I know there's alot PAL to NTSC AV Converters out there
Is there like one for RF Signals?
I have a Sega Master System 2 PAL-I
Is it possible to do it, Thanks
just curious, what happens if you try to tune it in on your existing NTSC TV/TVs, can you get a locked black-and-white picture with no sound, an out-of-lock ("rolling") picture, or nothing at all ?

I assume the modulator is on European Ch36 which corresponds to American Ch 34 (same video carrier frequency 591.25 MHz )

Last edited by colourking; 22nd Jul 2014 at 11:25 am.
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Old 22nd Jul 2014, 2:25 pm   #4
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Default Re: PAL to NTSC RF Converter

It's not just the colour encoding that is different, but also the audio carrier frequency and even the main channel carrier frequencies. The UK used to use UHF, bands IV and V, with 6 MHz sound. Most of the Continent added VHF bands I and III, with 5.5 MHz sound. And France used to use SECAM.

Wouldn't it be simpler just to buy a PAL telly?
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Old 22nd Jul 2014, 5:46 pm   #5
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Default Re: PAL to NTSC RF Converter

Quote:
Originally Posted by colourking View Post
just curious, what happens if you try to tune it in on your existing NTSC TV/TVs, can you get a locked black-and-white picture with no sound, an out-of-lock ("rolling") picture, or nothing at all ?
I assume the modulator is on European Ch36 which corresponds to American Ch 34 (same video carrier frequency 591.25 MHz )
US TVs don't do PAL and many don't do 50Hz field rate.
The best bet is to take AV out of the Sega, into a converter, and either AV input to the TV or if not available a US modulator which I'm sure is available.
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Old 22nd Jul 2014, 9:36 pm   #6
MarioMania
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Default Re: PAL to NTSC RF Converter

I don't think it be easy here to get a World Standard VCR's

One thing is to buy a PAL Game Gear Tuner
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 6:26 am   #7
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Default Re: PAL to NTSC RF Converter

My experience was that multistandard TV/video equipment was not unknown in the USA, but not easy to find. Some specialist suppliers handled it, and there were some grey-market imports. I recall that in our office meeting room in the late 1980s we had a Sharp VCR and monitor-receiver combination that covered most world TV standards, but which was not standards-converting. I had (still have) a Panasonic NV-W1E, which I think was a grey-market import supplied by 47th Street Photo in NYC. The NV-W1E by the way is standards-converting, but all of the inputs and outputs are baseband, not RF. I also bought a Philips multi-standard monitor-receiver from East West International of Houston, TX. This company is still in business as far as I know, and still handles multistandard/standards converting TV/video equipment. Probably it could supply equipment to do your conversion job.

If you want to do it with vintage/used equipment though, then finding a multistandard receiver or monitor-receiver would be the simplest approach, as has already been said. But if you are stuck with doing an RF-to-RF conversion, and accepting the resultant signal degradation, then you’ll need a demodulator of some kind to convert the available PAL-I RF signal to baseband, a standards conversion unit to change the signal from PAL-I to NTSC-M, and then an NTSC-M RF modulator, unless such was built-in to the standards conversion unit. But the NTSC-M modulator would be the least of your worries, as this item I think would have reasonable availability. As to demodulation, whilst analogue standalone TV tuners existed, finding one that was either PAL-I or multistandard would probably be difficult. More likely would be a multistandard VCR, whose tuner section could be used. Whether the survival rate for multistandard VCRs was higher than that for the multistandard receivers with which they were probably usually coupled is unknown, but I’d guess that smaller, lighter and more easily stored VCRs would do better. Whether the VCR mechanism still works is not material, as long as the electronics still work.

Anyway, there are probably several ways in which the RF-to-RF conversion equipment could be assembled depending upon exactly what could be found. As just one example, I have pondered, as a hypothetical exercise, as to how I might do the job using equipment on hand, excluding the Philips multistandard monitor-receiver. The Sony multistandard VCR would be used as a tuner to convert the PAL-I RF signal to baseband. This would be fed into the Panasonic NV-W1E VCR for standards conversion from PAL-I to NTSC-M, and then into the NEC (NTSC-M) VCR whose modulator would provide an RF output on one of the VHF low-band channels for feeding an NTSC TV receiver. Very unwieldy though; three VCRs in tandem with only part of each being used. If one had an NTSC monitor-receiver rather than just a receiver, the third stage could be eliminated, as the NV-W1E could feed the monitor directly.

Cheers,
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 11:22 am   #8
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Default Re: PAL to NTSC RF Converter

If you can get baseband composite video out of the unit (CVBS) that is your best hope - most modern flat screen sets worldwide will handle almost anything in this form. Base band must be available somewhere on the unit because this is the signal form used for the UHF modulator.
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 2:32 pm   #9
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Default Re: PAL to NTSC RF Converter

Is this any use to you?

If you take the RGB option, you won't even need to worry about PAL vs NTSC .....

Other material online suggests that if you remove the RF modulator, a SCART socket (which can usually be robbed from a dead VCR) can be mounted around the back of the MSII with some drill-and-file surgery. Obviously this destroys originality, but presumably you want to be able actually to use the thing .....
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 3:41 pm   #10
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Default Re: PAL to NTSC RF Converter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicklyons2 View Post
If you can get baseband composite video out of the unit (CVBS) that is your best hope - most modern flat screen sets worldwide will handle almost anything in this form.
Modern sets in Europe can usually handle 525-NTSC picture at RF too, though they often require the signal to be saved on preset channel 0 (intended for VCR modulators)
Sound will not work of course (unless its put through a System-I modulator, or sound played through other equipment (audio amplifier).
There's also the issue of UK TVs often being UHF-only and unable to tune the two Band 1 channels commonly used by American modulators.

Even before multi-standards TVs, TVs tried here (Ireland - have Band 1) could at least display a black-and-white picture - which was much better than nothing when a visitor from the US brought over a camcorder and watched the footage recorded on a TV here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajs_derby View Post
Other material online suggests that if you remove the RF modulator, a SCART socket (which can usually be robbed from a dead VCR) can be mounted around the back of the MSII with some drill-and-file surgery.
a composite socket should be easy to do (the modulator is fed with a composite video signal anyway)
I don't think any typical American TVs will have a SCART input so no point in doing that, as you will end up using an adaptor to go from SCART to Composite, and L, R audio sockets.

Winston_1 doubts that even modern American TVs will handle even a composite 625 PAL signal, but even if this is generally the case, there might be exceptions so it is surely worth trying at RF and composite if feasible to see what happens)
if picture works at RF, you could play the sound through any audio amplifier/amplified speakers etc (bypassing the TV)

Last edited by colourking; 23rd Jul 2014 at 4:04 pm.
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 10:25 pm   #11
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Default Re: PAL to NTSC RF Converter

There are several solutions to the problem of using a PAL-I Sega Master System in the USA.

For a one-box solution, the Samsung SV-5000W Multi-System VCR can receive PAL-I RF signals, convert them to NTSC and output NTSC-M RF from its built-in modulator. However it will probably be quite expensive or hard to find in the USA. Multi-system video equipment isn't very common over there, due to low demand. Likewise, getting a multi-system TV that can handle PAL-I is possible, but televisions are fragile and expensive to ship.

Modifying your console to produce S-Video output may be one of the cheapest options (see post #9). Using S-Video avoids the issue of PAL and NTSC altogether, so no further conversion is necessary. However, the output will be 50Hz S-video. Older CRT TVs will probably accept it, but may require adjustment to the height or vertical hold / lock. Surprisingly, many flat-panel TVs sold in the USA do not accept 50Hz signals at all.

You can test this by connecting the RF out from your PAL-I Sega game to the UHF Antenna socket of your TV. Tune to channel 34 (approximately) until you hopefully see something. If you can see a stable black and white picture, your TV accepts 50Hz video. Using S-video from your console should give you a full colo(u)r picture without any further conversion. But if you see a rolling unstable picture, black / blue screen or "signal out of range" message, unfortunately your TV cannot display 50Hz signals.

There are other options to convert the PAL-I signal. You will need to get hold of a PAL-I tuner. This could be a standalone tuner box that converts PAL-I RF into composite video and audio, or a tuner built into a PAL-I VCR or DVD recorder. Then feed the PAL AV output into a PAL to NTSC converter. While on the subject of DVD recorders, I discovered that the ALBA RDVD1002 model sold in the UK and made by Mustek of Taiwan can convert PAL-I RF to NTSC video directly. Its built-in tuner will receive PAL-I signals and will change the PAL video to NTSC simply by setting the TV system to NTSC in the DVD recorder's setup menu. No external PAL to NTSC converter needed!

Another option, even easier to get hold of, is an Analog(ue) PAL-I TV tuner card for PC. Install the card (PCI or USB) and the software for it. You can see your PAL-I video game on your PC's monitor. If your PC has a TV out, set this to NTSC then you can feed the output to a real TV.

There are also VGA TV boxes available, some with built-in PAL-I tuners, which will convert PAL-I RF or composite video to VGA. Connect the VGA output to a PC monitor or flatscreen TV. No PC is needed.

Both PAL-I PC TV tuner cards and VGA converter boxes should be available online from Hong Kong very cheaply. Hong Kong uses PAL-I or at least they did. Britain and Ireland used PAL-I until 2012 when analogue TV broadcasts ended. Consequently, old analog TV tuner cards and boxes are pretty much worthless now, and can be bought for pennies (search on ebay.co.uk for someone willing to ship internationally).

You mentioned the Sega Game Gear TV tuner. I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think there are two versions of the Game Gear, a 60Hz version for the USA and a 50Hz one for Europe. I believe the PAL TV tuner cartridge requires the 50Hz version of the console and won't work in the USA version (but you could of course buy a European Game Gear together with the TV tuner!)
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Old 24th Jul 2014, 10:24 am   #12
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Default Re: PAL to NTSC RF Converter

Quote:
Originally Posted by colourking View Post
I don't think any typical American TVs will have a SCART input so no point in doing that
True, it is rare outside Europe. Virtually nothing in the AP region has it either, and RGB is very uncommon (except for a VGA input on some sets). You'll usually find composite, maybe component and maybe S-Video. HDMI, of course, on modern TVs.

I remember looking into this in the context of sending a region 4 576i50 DVD to a friend in the USA - I ended up sending them the original they were wanting, a region free copy and a copy as a Xvid AVI file because a lot of what I was reading was saying that while playing 480i60 in "PAL" regions is usually a no-brainer, most US-supplied equipment has no idea about the different number of lines and frame rate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamid_1 View Post
Using S-Video avoids the issue of PAL and NTSC altogether, so no further conversion is necessary.
S-Video is still PAL or NTSC. To get away from the encoding you'll need component or RGB.
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Old 4th Sep 2014, 6:20 am   #13
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Default Re: PAL to NTSC RF Converter

If you have a relative or friend in the armed forces, the local PX/BX should have the multiformat VCRs.
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Old 7th Sep 2014, 10:59 pm   #14
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Default Re: PAL to NTSC RF Converter

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamid_1 View Post
Using S-Video avoids the issue of PAL and NTSC altogether, so no further conversion is necessary. However, the output will be 50Hz S-video.
Sadly not the case. S-Video is still PAL or NTSC - the only difference between S-Video and composite is that rather than the PAL or NTSC colour subcarrier being mixed with the luminance and carried as a single feed as it is with composite, with S-Video they are kept separate.

An S-Video connector carries clean luminance on one pin and has a separate pin carrying the PAL or NTSC subcarrier. This avoids them being mixed (and avoids cross-luma / cross-colour interference)

To avoid PAL or NTSC subcarriers you need to use component, VGA, HDMI, DVI etc. connections.
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