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Old 4th Jan 2011, 5:16 pm   #81
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Default Re: Restorer's dream.

Hi Jim,

Many thanks for the information; as a lover of all things woodworking I'm rather puzzled that after a manufacturer goes to all the trouble of making plywood ensuring it is perfectly flat out of the press only to ship it in the way depicted by the bottom pallet in the picture on the link where the sheets are already buckled; surely this defeats the object of plywood which should remain flat and stable. Given the small sizes I require it could well be possible to buy one of these sheets though and cut the best bit out of the middle of the sheet. I've also seen plywood with deep strap marks where the bundle has been strapped to a pallet using steel strapping.

To date I have not received replies to both my email requests regarding my plywood needs and no longer expect a reply.

A friend suggested Arnold Laver's whom I've known for many years visiting one of their sites in Bradford; Laver's have a huge selection of timber material and is a good choice.

I've had the best day for ages today; the new veneer finally arrived safely this afternoon and it looks beautiful although I haven't fully unwrapped it; I often wondered how long lengths of veneer where posted so I'm happy to include a picture of it still coiled but out of the box. The veneer will be stored in the box until I'm ready to use it and it is stored away from heat.

I received a message this morning informing me the hide glue will arrive tomorrow so I'm delighted as things are slowly coming together.

As a bonus I'm also making excellent progress as I work on my wooden knob making project which will be completed before starting work on this Ekco cabinet. 2011 is starting to turn out well after all and I'm happy.

Kind regards, Col.
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Old 4th Jan 2011, 8:51 pm   #82
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Default Re: Restorer's dream.

Col,
Arnold Laver's on Canal Road used to be a splendid place. I once bought a sheet of 1" Birch Blockboard there and took it home lashed to the roof of the car
What's it like now?
Alan
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Old 5th Jan 2011, 6:49 pm   #83
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Hi,

I've not yet visited Laver's Alan so can't update you yet but they were good many years ago when I did use to visit.

I was very pleased when the hide glue arrived this morning and this was quickly followed by a brand new electric single hotplate that I had bought for workshop use. I've wanted a single hotplate for years but thought they would be rather expensive but the one I've now got cost £15.49 plus £1.95 P&P it is controlled by a thermostat and will be perfect for heating the hide glue either in the workshop or garage as it simply plugs into a 13A socket. It will also heat a dish of sand as I wish to experiment at sand shading veneer as used for making inlay motifs such as fans, A very useful bit of kit.

On our way home from Leeds we visited Blackgates Engineering and I bought a strip of brass to complete the veneer hammers so everything is nicely dropping into place; once the radio knobs are completed I'll obtain suitable plywood.

The pictures shows the new hotplate and the hide glue.

Kind regards, Col.
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Old 5th Jan 2011, 7:33 pm   #84
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Default Re: Restorer's dream.

Col,
PM sent regarding ply.
Regards
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Old 5th Jan 2011, 8:20 pm   #85
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Hi Howard,

PM received and I've just replied; many thanks for the very useful information it is much appreciated.

Kind regards, Col.
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Old 12th Jan 2011, 6:28 pm   #86
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Hi,

With the wooden knobs now made and posted I can concentrate on this TV project.

Yesterday afternoon Bronwyn accompanied me whilst I drove around playing hunt the plywood. I had seen Craven Timber of Heckmondwike website so drove over; as I parked at the roadside and got out of the car a large side loader was bearing down on me so I stepped aside and let it run into the timber shed at speed. I followed in but was unsure of the safest place to stand whilst the driver manoeuvred the side loader within the building eventually departing the way he had entered. It took all of two minutes to locate the 6mm plywood which once again was stored in racks making it wavy so I walked out without even speaking to anyone.

Next was a second visit to Walker Timber in Birkby; I hoped my friend Alex would be on duty after his holiday and so far this company had supplied the best plywood; As I walked into the timber shed I was greeted with “hiya Col” Alex was on duty so I had a good natter with him explaining my needs and Alex rightly stated that he could not guarantee the flatness of the plywood but that a brand new bundle had just been received and I followed him to it. The bundle was at the top of the racks so Alex kindly climbed onto the back of the parked wagon and pulled three sheets down for me to inspect. The third sheet was just the job so Alex carried it over to the saw only to remember that their 3 phase supply was down due to workmen nearby; so near and so far; all I wanted was two pieces at 23” square. Not to be beaten Alex suggested he cut it using a hand saw allowing a generous margin for rip out and between us we marked the sheet; just then a guy suggested using a single phase jigsaw as the single phase power was still on. A few minutes later my plywood problem was finally solved. I’ve now got two flat pieces of 6mm exterior plywood amounting to a 4’x2’ size in total and was only charged £4 the normal price. Walkers like Boards are the old style timber yards where part sheets can still be bought without a charge for cutting being added. The plywood is now sitting nice and flat on the carpet in our spare bedroom out of harms way. What a saga just to obtain two bits of ply.

This afternoon I once again inspected the cabinet and made the decision to attempt restoration rather than replacement even though the cabinet is so rough. First job was to spend an hour tidying up and putting stuff away to clear bench space; normally my benches are kept clear but with the severe weather I’ve not wished to spend more time than necessary in the garage.

I cut the newly purchased brass strip and glued it into my home made veneer hammer using Poundland epoxy completing the hammer.

Turning my attention to the cabinet I removed the loudspeaker unit only to find its plywood mounting board is badly de-laminating it being plywood; I still live in the hope of finding some good news with this cabinet as every time I look at it or touch it I find more work required. I was hoping to replace a small plywood base panel which is badly worm riddled but noticed this panel is tongued into adjoining framework so let it be for the time being. One of the back uprights had separated from the side panel and bottom of the cabinet it being allowed to “float” only secured by its top joint. This upright is crucial to the integrity of the cabinet and would need securing to enable me to carry out my method of restoration.

My plan is to completely remove the damaged ¼” thick side panels and replace them with the two new pieces of plywood. I’ve never seen this attempted before but to remove the side panels without securing the rear upright would allow the cabinet to collapse at one side. I just stood there looking at the “butt” joint for a while deciding what to do; I decided to add a screwed splint of 3/8” thick plywood but even this would be a problem because a rusty screw was right in the way so I ended up adding two screws through the splint one each side of the rusty screw and two more to completely secure it. I can fill the screw holes once the splint is removed; this will now hopefully allow removal of the side panels. Only a small job but it took a little while to accomplish.

Assuming I can remove the side panels I will be faced with more problems; to simply glue the new plywood panels into position then veneer the outer faces could be asking for the panels to buckle or bow due to the terrific pulling power as the hide glue dries; not only would this be unacceptable but would mean losing many hours work and the expensive new veneer meaning starting all over again. To overcome this I plan to veneer both sides of the new side panels before fitting them to the cabinet; by adding a backing veneer it is hoped that the pulling forces will cancel each other out; this by the way is standard veneering practice. I will use the Sapele Pommele veneer for the show side and a cheaper veneer as backing. One important point I must not overlook is to ensure I align the new plywood with the grain to run at 90 degrees to the new veneer when I mark the plywood for cutting to size.

An additional problem is the side frames being made of thick plywood; these are riddled with worm holes and it would be very easy for me to merely cross band them as original with new Sapele veneer but as modern veneer is only 0.6mm thick I fear the holes will telegraph through once the French polish is applied even if I use filler to fill the holes before veneering. Once again I hope to run a backing veneer first lengthwise around the top and front edges of each side to give additional support to the final veneer cross banding. Yet another small problem is thrown up by adopting this approach of using a backing veneer; the thickness of this veneer doesn’t appear to present a problem but as the panels are to be veneered first and the cross banding added last the strip of backing veneer will present itself as plywood viewed from the side of the cabinet. Only a small point but I’m trying to sort out all these small points before pulling the cabinet to pieces. To overcome this problem I can trim the new panels slightly over size say an additional 1/8” added to the front and top of each; glue the newly veneered panels into place then add the backing veneer abutting it up closely to the side panels and when the glue has dried run the router fitted with a flush cutting bit around to bring the top and side edges of both panels perfectly level with the backing veneer then simply cross band as normal.

All this sounds good in my head but is as yet untried in practice but appears a feasible solution. I’m adding as much detail as possible in the hope of sharing my thoughts and work in progress to enable other members to do similar cabinet repairs without having to solve all these problems for a second time. There are a lot of ifs and buts in all this and everything could go horribly wrong but what I am doing is taking a great deal of time and trying to think each stage through in my head being very much aware that each individual process impounds on others and failure could be the result of something simple being overlooked up front.

I feel happier just for adding the plywood splint at least it is a positive start and it has resolved one problem. Due to the weather it's taken me a week to make five wooden radio knobs so this TV cabinet could take quite a while to sort out.

Kind regards, Col.
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Old 14th Jan 2011, 12:37 pm   #87
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Hi,

My enthusiasm for this project took a serious knock yesterday. The plywood problem is still haunting me; the third lot of plywood I bought and thought to be of decent quality turned out as bad as the others.

Yesterday I was on top of the world and keen to get this project underway. I inspected the plywood in decent light only to find a void running through the core; I had missed this at the timber yard as I was more interested in trying to find flat plywood; but what a disappointment this plywood is; the face side although smooth includes sanded knots and the back shows ply stress due to the glue drying out leaving small gaps along the grain.

I had stored the other plywood flat on the bench and was surprised to see that it had settled and was now flat enough to veneer as the warping had diminished considerably so I selected the plywood with the thick inner core and tissue thin outer veneer as this had the best surfaces. I sat the cabinet on this plywood and drew around it using a pencil then added a second pencil line allowing 1/8” for trimming. Cutting it out on the large bandsaw I felt the plywood suddenly jump forward slightly and immediately knew this to be a void in the core. Out of curiosity I cut out both panels to find a large void to the core in each running right through the panel. To add insult to injury I broke a strip of waste about ½” wide to throw it in the bin but this strip didn’t snap with a loud crack like decent plywood does but it merely bent and the inner core crumbled as the glue let go; I believe Weetabix would have had more strength.

I’ve now visited six local plywood suppliers and have reached the conclusion that should I visit another six all will supply this sub standard plywood aimed at the DIY user. I need to try something else before I die of frustration.

Howard very kindly sent me a contact phone number of a guy who is willing to help out with a bit of decent ply so I rang this morning but only got the fax machine as I waited so I will try again later; obtaining plywood in this way whilst most welcome and would help me out of this nightmare it would be of little use to members wishing to obtain decent plywood so I really wanted to enquire where he sources his plywood from.

I’ve also found a guy in Ilkeston Derbyshire selling top quality marine plywood and at a very reasonable price of around £12 for a half sheet 4’x4x6mm plus postage. I’m reluctant to buy this unseen and Ilkeston is a fair distance from Huddersfield but if all else fails I’ll take Bron for a trip out.

I’ve just emailed Arnold Laver’s in Bradford to enquire if they can help so await their reply with interest.

The harder I try to resolve this plywood problem the worse it gets and I just can’t understand why I’m having so much grief; I’ve bought plenty of plywood over the years but the quality of standard plywood now available is rock bottom.

On a happier note I’ve completed the veneer hammer by adding the brass blade securing it with epoxy and giving it a heavy coat of linseed oil to seal the wood. The picture of the plywood shows what I’m up against and highlights the need for very careful inspection in good light before buying such poor quality plywood. I've wasted considerable time and £12 so far trying to obtain decent plywood.

Kind regards, Col.
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Old 14th Jan 2011, 12:59 pm   #88
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Hi Col, sorry to hear you're still having bother with this. That stuff in the picture looks more like faced MDF than proper plywood!

Hope you have more luck soon!

Dom
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Old 14th Jan 2011, 2:59 pm   #89
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Certainly doesn't look like plywood should, Col. More like a sort of low-grade blockboard. I'm both surprised and saddened to hear of your problems with sourcing decent ply. The stuff you show in the picture would barely make the grade as firewood.
-Tony
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Old 14th Jan 2011, 3:15 pm   #90
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Default Re: Restorer's dream.

On a plus side, that hammer looks a work of art !
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Old 14th Jan 2011, 4:17 pm   #91
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Hi,

Many thanks Dom and Tony, I believe a lot of plywood is imported from China and can only assume that the core is made up of compressed paddy field waste or they have some very weak trees out there. As you rightly say Tony it would make poor firewood; for this quality even the £4 per 4'x2'x6mm sheets are expensive but with Wickes and B&Q charging double this amount beggars belief.

Thanks also ekcopyephilips for your kind comment; yes it's a shame to mess the hammer up with hide glue; I used linseed oil to seal the wood as it will be used a lot with water the hide glue being water based. Out of interest this home made veneer hammer only cost about £1.50 to make as I used vintage timber and had some Poundland epoxy to hand so the only expense was the brass strip bought from Blackgates Engineering and the strip measured 6"x1.5" giving enough for two hammers the strip costing just over £3. I reduced the strip down to 1.125" in width so it would have been even cheaper had Blackgates had this size of brass strip in stock. I also got the satisfaction of making it unlike merely handing over money to buy one.

I was quite overwhelmed earlier today when a member sent me a most welcome PM from the south west offering to very kindly check out two of his local timber yards on my behalf for good quality plywood. This member is a credit to the forum and I couldn't thank him enough. However I have suggested he hang on for a short while until I keep checking locally and to this end I've already been quite active.

A short while ago I spoke to Howard's friend who was most obliging and helpful; the outcome was that this guy was happy to inform me that he buys his plywood from Howarth Timber in Leeds so; as Howarth's have many branches I've just emailed the Huddersfield branch requesting help.

I've also emailed Arnold Laver's in Bradford with my needs so it will be interesting to see the replies in due course.

Obtaining good quality plywood is proving to be a huge joke as I thought this would have been the easiest item to obtain; I've got the hide glue and veneers and even made the veneering hammer but to have so much trouble with what is after all basic board material makes me wonder just what kind of work is being produced by the DIY fraternity if they are buying such poor quality.

I'm still keen to tackle this project but don't want to waste around £40 worth of veneer on poor quality plywood; I don't even yet know if my restoration method will work because 6mm thick plywood is rather thin and could well distort badly once the veneer is applied; I don't even know if I'm up to carrying out this veneering but I do know I'll give it my best shot.

I wonder if 3/16" sheet aluminium would accept wood veneer?

Thanks everyone for your encouragement.

Kind regards, Col.
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Old 14th Jan 2011, 4:19 pm   #92
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Thats plywood?!?! looks more like veneered cardboard! I thought the stuff I've got was rubbish. My Dad works in the kitchen sales industry, and he said one of his suppliers does veneered ply, and veneer itself. their called 'Lathams', he says googling them should bring up their website, he thinks their mainly based around the west midlands, don't know if that would be of any use? I hope you can find some soon. the hammers you made look fantastic!

good luck,
Lloyd.

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Old 14th Jan 2011, 4:55 pm   #93
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I know that MDF is a dirty word but at least it's fairly consistent, stable and predictable stuff. Would it be worth using instead of plywood?
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Old 14th Jan 2011, 5:07 pm   #94
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I'd agree with Jeffrey re MDF. Veneered and counter-veneered, it should resist warping and is a naturally very stable material. It may not be quite true to the spirit of the restoration, but it looks like being superior to anything ply-wise available today. Unless, of course, your persistence pays off and you eventually locate some reasonably flat and reasonably well-constructed ply. Good luck on that, Col, but having seen the results so far I won't hold my breath.
-Tony
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Old 14th Jan 2011, 5:21 pm   #95
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Hi Lloyd,

Thanks for this and your kind wishes. I've just checked and there is indeed a James Latham nearby in Ossett; I emailed this company a couple of years ago but didn't receive a reply so thought they were trade only?

For members like me who only require part sheets of plywood are finding it increasingly difficult as many suppliers only sell full 8'x4' sheets and don't even reply to emails for such small quantities.

I've also been checking Howarth's sites and note there is one in Dewsbury which is nearby and worth a visit.

It must be boring to be a lottery winner and being able to pop out and spend £50 on a sheet of marine ply. It's much more fun being awake at nights trying to resolve these silly little problems like playing hunt the plywood!!

Thanks Jeffrey; I've just noticed your post and yes MDF is used extensively in industry as a substrate for veneer. Unfortunately the MDF I've seen locally is roughly the same quality as the plywood and would fall apart as soon as it was wetted with the hide glue. I have seriously considered using MDF because it has many good qualities and I've even tried to locate the industrial kind that is actually much higher density and water resistant but this is rarer to find than decent plywood and appears to be only available in bulk to the trade.

I believe Arnold Laver and James Latham stock it but I would need to make more enquiries as to whether I could buy a quarter sheet; I've spent many hours surfing the web for sheet materials and information; all the websites look wonderful but so far not one has given the basic information I need as to whether they supply part sheets and at what cost.

I can afford a full sheet but feel being pressured to buy one would defeat my aim of encouraging others to have a go at cabinetwork; I want to make a decent job of this cabinet but do so as cheaply as possible. Once I find a supplier on my terms I feel things will start to fall into place; all I need is patience and a lot of it.

Kind regards, Col.
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Old 14th Jan 2011, 5:28 pm   #96
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Have you considered raiding some scrap furniture for its tiimber? There must be plenty of unloved furniture with a bit of plywood in it residing in junk shops and local auction houses. For MDF one might even raid some scrap Ikea furniture. For all we might turn up our noses at Ikea stuff it holds together pretty well and does a useful job at a useful price.
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Old 14th Jan 2011, 5:45 pm   #97
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Hi,

Thanks Tony and Jeffrey; it might be worth a visit over to Arnold laver on Canal Road Bradford as they list external quality MDF on their website but only in full sheets. isn't it strange that we are considering having to go to such lengths as pulling old furniture apart or even Ikea stuff in order to get something that we should really be falling over in every DIY store in the UK?

This cabinet won't be a faithful restoration as I intend to play around with different veneers so using MDF isn't out of the question but out of curiosity I wanted to try the old way of veneering onto plywood.

I'm starting to think it's a case of I can't have decent plywood so I want it all the more and I'm digging in; if I buy MDF I bet I'll start falling over decent plywood; such is life.

http://www.laver.co.uk/doclib/panel_bro.pdf

Please scroll down to view material list.

Kind regards, Col.
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Old 14th Jan 2011, 8:10 pm   #98
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Hi Col

I know its a long way from you, but i have always found these guys to be very good and far cheaper than the DIY chainstores

www.timbernorwich.co.uk

Its worth a look, as their site says they will deliver anywhere in the UK

Cheers

Mike
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Old 14th Jan 2011, 8:17 pm   #99
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Default Re: Restorer's dream.

Strewth Colin, I knew you were having trouble souyrcing ply to the quality that you need, but I hadn't fully appreicated just how manky the sstuff is that you've found so far. What you need is what most of us have in mind when we say 'plywood', the term for which is 'birch through and through'. In otehr words, it consists of thin birch veneers of equal thickness right threough the ply, with few or no voids.

If you check Arnold Laver's stock list they have this:

WBP Exterior Birch
Throughout Plywood (CP)
12mm 2440 x 1220
18mm 2440 x 1220
24mm 2440 x 1220


I've attached a pic of a piece from my offcut bin, which is actually 20mm thick, but it illustrates what 'birch through and through' ply looks like.

Hope that helps a bit.

Best of luck!

David
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Old 14th Jan 2011, 8:49 pm   #100
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Hi Mike,

Thanks for the link; I've just had a look. I've seen North Heigham Sawmill advertised many times and they stock some wonderful timbers; I'd be permanently broke if I lived nearby.

Cushion Timber also looks interesting but their website is still under construction although the phone numbers are shown. All these sites are very useful to know not just for me but for other members perhaps living nearer to them.

I've been surfing the web looking for local suppliers of exterior MDF and there are many but all selling full sheets only; one site giving MDF details states MDF is considerably cheaper than equivalent plywood so well worth looking into.

Kind regards, Col.
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