Should inexperienced members be encouraged to work on mains powered equipment?

[Station X]

Welcome back Steve.

[Radio_Dave]

I'd like to think we've saved more people from harm than actually caused them any.

I do have to say I don't like all this "I've had an electric shock and survived" talk though, it gives the false impression of safety. There is a website that lists some cases of electrocution. I'm not going to post a link because it will most likely take this thread off topic, but the case of a 2 year old who died because he pushed a nail into a wall socket and a student who died changing a light bulb stays in my memory.

David

[stuarth]

It's very difficult for us to asses a newbie's level of understanding. Someone may say "I know nothing about record players, but I want to fix one" - and not add that they have a wide experience in industrial electronics - they just want advice on the vagaries of record player design. Or someone else's lack of understanding may not emerge until a few posts into a thread, by which time we've already given advice which may lead them into danger.

If our advice to newbies is always "don't touch, it can bite", then we either turn them off completely, or leave them going it alone without our advice.

So while we can't reliably assess a newbie as to whether they should be encouraged to work on mains powered equipment, there is some EQUIPMENT they should be strongly discouraged from working on. Microwave ovens with high energy 2kV rails spring to mind - a friend with no electrical knowledge mentioned looking inside one, so I told him that there were places in there which you could touch, and you wouldn't feel a thing. Ever again. He took the advice.

Stuart

[Skywave]

Re: the tread title: I'm not sure about the 'encouragement' qualifier, but I'm in favour of 'guidance'. And in that regard, I do support the notion that attempts by would-be guiders should initially be to try to get a non-too detailed assessment of the inexperienced members knowledge (yes, and his/her experience) of working on electrical and electronics equipment generally.

How? By asking a few questions - such as:

1. Do you own a multimeter; do you know how to use it?
2. If you have a mains cable with a 230-v. 3-pin plug at one end and you find a 13-amp fuse in it, would you ever consider changing it for a lower current one? And if so, why?
4. Do you know what an isolation transformer is - and why such a thing is sometimes used?
5. What is the peak-peak value, in volts, of the domestic mains supply?

The embedded significance of those Qs - to me - seems obvious. And the consequent replies should be highly indicative, too. The guiding member can then advise accordingly.

Obviously many more could be asked - but we don't want to frighten the inexperienced member away, do we? The other important aspect is to preface any such questionnaire with a polite request - something along the lines of "Working inside mains powered equipment can be dangerous. I'd just like to ask you a few questions so that I can guide you appropriately" (Or not at all, as might subsequently become apparent! )

Just a considered idea from me - I expect that there are a few flaws in it, somewhere.

Al.

[Cobaltblue]

I do feel more risk adverse these days

I have just spent almost 3 hours today doing online security training so forgive me If I want to kill everyone

I have finally got to an age where I finally realise I am not indestructible.

The many shocks I received in my teens and a few more ( OK quite a lot more) since have never been pleasant.

We all know that Newbies join this forum for numerous and diverse reasons.

Many are just trying to get a record player going since vinyl is back in vogue.

But some are trying to make their hobby work for them.

I guess that like the majority here I learned the had way, but that doesn't mean that Newbies should be exposed to the same risk.

The majority of posts do try to ensure a safe working methods and I think that needs to be encouraged.

Edwards first post asks the important question should we encourage the inexperienced to work on mains powered equipment.

My reply is we all did.

But it was almost 50 years ago things have changed.

I would personally never feel comfortable putting someone else at risk.

I tend of late to stay out of ..... A bought a Dansette/ Fidelity for that very reason.

Cheers

Mike T

[dave walsh]

As Al and others keep saying, there are simple questions that could and should be asked to START with, if advice is being sought. Usually these aren't though for fear of upsetting someone. It's very noticeable that some OP's only respond to those who offer advice that seems to support their existing [often erratic] approach and ignore the hard questions. It's no way to proceede really is it.

Dave W

[Boater Sam]

In future I am going to ignore the "just bought a record player and I want to do it up" type of post.

From the experiences recently on this and other forums these opening posts usually lead to a complicated trip to nowhere with someone who has little or no idea of what to do, refuses to respond to advice given, and leads us all a merry dance, frightening us for their safety.

No more please.

[Radio_Dave]

We need to stop worrying. We're a public forum so tests and disclaimers, read while signing up, aren't that helpful. Any advice given in any post could be used by anyone on the world wide web. As long as the advice is good and correct that's all we can do.

As I said in my earlier post, I do believe we save far more people from harm than we hurt. Most newbies who come here have already started poking around inside and it's this forum that reins them in.

David

[Station X]

Originally Posted by Station X

Personally I think it's exceedingly unlikely that someone will receive a fatal electric shock whilst working on a vintage radio.

What concerns me is that I could be sued by an ambulance chasing firm of lawyers engaged by a parent whose teenage offspring suffered Post Traumatic Stress Disorder after receiving a mild electric shock whilst working on a Dansette.

Looks like I need to revise my thinking here in the light of subsequent posts.

I'm not likely to be sued.

People have been electrocuted whilst working on mains powered sets.

-------------------------------------

I've not seen any reports of anyone being electrocuted whilst working on a vintage radio. The reports I've seen of people being electrocuted in a domestic situation generally go something like this:-

When the boiler/wall heater/heated towel rail/cooker hood was installed one of the fixing screws contacted the live wire of a cable buried in the wall. The deceased then touched the appliance and was electrocuted.

Firstly for this to happen would require that the appliance wasn't earthed, which would instantly have blown the fuse or tripped the MCB during installation.

Secondly the installation cannot have been fitted with an RCD which would have cut off the current, assuming the current passed from live to ground through the deceased's body.

I guess this reinforces the need to have a correctly installed installation and to use a portable RCD if none is fitted in the Consumer Unit.

I'd better put my own house in order. I use a four way extension lead with the earth lifted to power test equipment when working on live chassis sets.

[HamishBoxer]

I would like to say a thank you Graham for allowing this long thread.There is as there always will be many different thoughts.

[Lucien Nunes]

I think this thread is testimony to the dedication of enthusiasts in this hobby towards nurturing their fellow human beings, and also to the constructive attitudes that prevail on this forum. I have many views on this subject but most of them have been aired already, in many cases put over much better than I could. I would like to tie together the ones that make up my chain of reasoning as follows:

1. Risk = Severity x Probability. This is the simple equation that evaluates the probable cost of a hazard to the human race. Death is more severe than a broken leg, but in many activities it is highly improbable that an accident will result in death so counts as a low risk, whilst broken legs are common and score a relatively higher risk.

2. Individual experience is untrustworthy when dealing with low-probability, high-severity risks. We could all compare notes about minor accidents that result in cuts, bruises and sprains and probably concur about their impact on our lives. But very few of us could say anything about the experience of death through electrocution either of ourselves (!) or another, because it is so infrequent, so we could not really consider ourselves to hold any authority about the subject. As has been pointed out effectively above, the view 'I did X and it did not kill me' is not one of experience and carries no value other than to show that doing X is not 100% guaranteed to kill you.

3. To get a clear view of the probability of severe injury or death from electric shock, one needs to look at a sample size in the order of the total UK population, not just the few thousand in this hobby, because these outcomes are so unlikely even when you include idiots climbing transmission towers for a dare or fooling about with microwave oven transformers. It turns out that electricity is comparitively safe to have around, even if you are pretty dumb and don't follow the instructions, in the light of other risks such as those involved with walking, eating, stepping out of the front door etc.

In consequence I think that this discussion, excellent though it is, cannot be expected to conclude with a definitive strategy for guiding the novice through his/her first encounter with potentially dangerous technology, because even the massed ranks of forum contributors do not form a large enough group to collectively hold a valid quantitative experience of the consequences. Any safety guidance given is necessary speculative as to its adequacy, so we must be guided by accepted good practice and accept that some advice given will be less than perfect for a particular situation without putting anyone legally in the wrong for giving it. Personally, I feel that the prevailing attitudes to safeguarding the inexperienced on the forum are excellent and that nothing much could be gained from a change in approach. I would urge those who advocate draconian risk avoidance measures to study published data such as the HSE's stats re. point 3 above, while those whose advice hinges on the fallacy mentioned in point 2 might ask themselves if they are equally qualified to advise on airline safety practice, merely on account of having flown in a plane and not died from that either. Other than that, keep up the good work!

[Station X]

I thought it best to split this thread again.

A thread relating to electrocutions can be found here:-

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=134242

[AC/HL]

Originally Posted by dave walsh

As Al and others keep saying, there are simple questions that could and should be asked to START with, if advice is being sought. Usually these aren't though for fear of upsetting someone.

Quite. Members are keen to offer advice, and much of it doesn't necessarily involve risk (speaker or stylus queries for example) but it's always better to pitch that advice at the right level. It shouldn't be upsetting at the beginning, after all a question is being asked between strangers. If advice goes straight over their head it might be though!

[Skywave]

Originally Posted by AC/HL

It [advice tendered] shouldn't be upsetting at the beginning, after all a question is being asked between strangers.

Well . . maybe. Some people have better 'people-handling' skills than others; advice between colleagues & associates (e.g. this very forum) and between total strangers need different styles. Plus it is far more efficient to communicate certain topics in speech, supplemented by body-language and tone of voice, than in print. A good command of English language helps here - but that itself needs to be tailored for the recipient. So it can be rather tricky; it can be easy to unintentionally give offence.

Moreover, if the advice offered does indeed "go straight over their head", then they have two options: ignore it and carry on, or ask for clarification. In the first case, the advising member is then surely not responsible in any manner for any consequences thus arising. In the latter case, the Q. and A. session simply continues - hopefully in a clear and distinct direction towards the required ultimate goal.

Al.