Newbie - Grundig TK120 repair - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

jonparker · 31st Aug 2015, 7:54 pm

Hello,

My in-laws have a Grunding TK120 they are looking to get repaired.

Symptoms as follows:
One of the belts has broken - this belt is 280mm in length. A replacement belt has been acquired but we do not have fitting instructions.

With no tape loaded, there is drive to both reels, this can be evidenced by the fact that of you turn the control knob to either rewind or fast forward, the relevant reel spins.

When START (play) is selected there is NO DRIVE to the right hand reel.

I have read references to an eBay seller who sells the belts with instructions. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

I have been told that an effort to repair the machine has already been made and the 4 screws on the top have been removed and the top plate has been lifted away.

Thanks for any help the forum can offer.

Michael Maurice · 1st Sep 2015, 12:42 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonparker

I have been told that an effort to repair the machine has already been made and the 4 screws on the top have been removed and the top plate has been lifted away.

Oh dear, the service instructions both from Grundig and the ebay seller state

If you loosen or undo the four screws on top of the mechanism, it will collapse and you will have huge problems in re-assembling the recorder and getting it working again. Just loosening them will pull the mechanism out of alignment and it will not run correctly again.

Thats not to say it cant be done, but it is very difficult and time consuming.

jonparker · 1st Sep 2015, 7:59 am

Oh dear indeed!

The screws are back in and the unit is working, aside from the no-drive-while-playing issue, so I would still like to give it a go for them.

You speak of the 'service instructions from Grundig' - do you know of the location of such a document?

Regards
Jon

Tim · 1st Sep 2015, 10:35 am

I have cut and re-(super)glued a round section belt together again, and it worked fine for many years. Needs to be cut carefully and aligned when gluing but does work. Flat belts not tried.

Essential to use good quality super glue though!

DOFFERY · 1st Sep 2015, 11:45 am

The belt has to be inserted through the lower flywheel bearing aperture after removing the bearing plate, remove the grease, re grease after insertion of belt & replacement of bearing plate.

Colin.

DOFFERY · 1st Sep 2015, 11:56 am

Jon,
Check page 17, there is a pic of the underside of the machine, ie. the bearing plate.

Colin.

jonparker · 1st Sep 2015, 2:05 pm

Forgive me. Page 17 of what?

DOFFERY · 1st Sep 2015, 2:32 pm

Go back to the opening page of the forum where the various subjects are mentioned & look at the bottom of the page.

Colin.

Station X · 1st Sep 2015, 3:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOFFERY

Jon,
Check page 17, there is a pic of the underside of the machine, ie. the bearing plate.

Colin.

I'm lost. Can you post a link please.

jonparker · 1st Sep 2015, 3:37 pm

I think he's trying to point us here:

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...57&postcount=8

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOFFERY

Go back to the opening page of the forum where the various subjects are mentioned & look at the bottom of the page

I think I've found what you are referring to, a picture with lots of parts helpfully labelled.

Which one is the bit I need to work on?

Jon

Michael Maurice · 1st Sep 2015, 10:11 pm

The original manual I was using was by an ebay seller called Big Dave, he's no longer active on ebay for some reason.

When you bought a belt kit, he included a very comprehensive manual on how to fit the belts.

The recommendation for for replacing the belts from underneath came from Grundig themselves.

jonparker · 1st Sep 2015, 10:21 pm

Righty ho. Better whip the base off then and see what we can see!

Michael Maurice · 3rd Sep 2015, 2:36 pm

You wont find anything from underneath.

When you loosen those four screws, the whole mechanism which is locked into place comes out of alignment and is very very tricky to put it back the way it was.

Your problems are on top of the deck.

DOFFERY · 3rd Sep 2015, 8:23 pm

I regret to differ Michael but as you state yourself post 11, the belts have to be fitted from underneath the mechanism. The screws on the top of the deck have been mentioned & it appears the mechanism has been restored.
Or have I misunderstood your post 13 ??

Colin.

jonparker · 3rd Sep 2015, 9:48 pm

I too am confused by the reply, although I do speak from the position of zero knowledge!

Michael Maurice · 4th Sep 2015, 8:47 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonparker

I have been told that an effort to repair the machine has already been made and the 4 screws on the top have been removed and the top plate has been lifted away.

From what I can understand though I may have misunderstood, the pinch roller wasn't engaging with the capstan.

Does the machine work in play but instead of being taken up by the RH spool, it spills out of the machine?

If the answer to the above is Yes, then forgive me and it seems like a drive belt issue.

If no, then someone has put the mechanism out of alignment..

jonparker · 6th Sep 2015, 8:12 am

The machine is currently in one piece. The top plate has previously been removed to allow for inspection and (presumably) the discovery that one of the drive belts has broken, and then put back together again. So the machine is now in a working state, aside from the no-drive issue.

The machine was put back together again and left for some time I suspect, but now their moving house is completed they are starting to slow down a bit and find time for other things, such as this repair.

I have yet to load a tape and see what happens.

With no tape loaded and the machine put into PLAY mode, would there be drive to the right hand spool? I would have thought there should be, as this is the reel which pulls the tape through.

I do hope that makes sense!

julie_m · 6th Sep 2015, 10:53 am

The right-hand spool doesn't pull the tape through -- it merely catches the tape that has been pulled through by the capstan and pinch roller drive. It also has to start off fast, but slow down as the tape plays. So it must be driven through some sort of friction clutch, which can slip to limit the energy imparted to the spool.

If the take-up spool carrier is fouling on anything, it will not move in PLAY.

Exact arrangements vary from recorder to recorder; but there is usually a belt driving the friction clutch plate in PLAY, and an idler driving the spool carrier directly from the outside in FAST FORWARD.

DOFFERY · 6th Sep 2015, 7:34 pm

There are two belts on your machine, or should be, one drives the flywheel from the motor,the other drives the R Hand take up spool from the flywheel . You mentioned originally you had a broken belt, this could be either belt as without a flywheel running, the take up spool will not be driven, nor would the T. Up spool be driven if that belt was missing.
1. Does the flywheel run, this is easy to see.? If not, this belt is missing/broken, assuming the motor is running.
2. Does the pinch roller meet the flywheel shaft when in play position, if so does the pinch roller turn, again assuming the flywheel is running.?

Without this basic info. difficult to assist further at this point.

Cheers.

Colin.

jonparker · 7th Sep 2015, 1:21 pm

Thanks for your assistance thus far. I shall attempt to investigate further when time permits.

The broken belt has been removed from the machine and I have measured it to be 280mm in length. The kit which my mum in law has purchased contains two belts, and the broken one which needs to be replaced appears to be the shorter of the two belts.

31st Aug 2015, 7:54 pm	#1
jonparker Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK. Posts: 8	Newbie - Grundig TK120 repair Hello, My in-laws have a Grunding TK120 they are looking to get repaired. Symptoms as follows: One of the belts has broken - this belt is 280mm in length. A replacement belt has been acquired but we do not have fitting instructions. With no tape loaded, there is drive to both reels, this can be evidenced by the fact that of you turn the control knob to either rewind or fast forward, the relevant reel spins. When START (play) is selected there is NO DRIVE to the right hand reel. I have read references to an eBay seller who sells the belts with instructions. Can anyone point me in the right direction? I have been told that an effort to repair the machine has already been made and the 4 screws on the top have been removed and the top plate has been lifted away. Thanks for any help the forum can offer.

1st Sep 2015, 7:59 am	#3
jonparker Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK. Posts: 8	Re: Newbie - Grundig TK120 repair Oh dear indeed! The screws are back in and the unit is working, aside from the no-drive-while-playing issue, so I would still like to give it a go for them. You speak of the 'service instructions from Grundig' - do you know of the location of such a document? Regards Jon

1st Sep 2015, 10:35 am	#4
Tim Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bradford on Avon, Wiltshire, UK. Posts: 3,310	Re: Newbie - Grundig TK120 repair I have cut and re-(super)glued a round section belt together again, and it worked fine for many years. Needs to be cut carefully and aligned when gluing but does work. Flat belts not tried. Essential to use good quality super glue though! __________________ "Nothing is as dangerous as being too modern;one is apt to grow old fashioned quite suddenly."

1st Sep 2015, 11:45 am	#5
DOFFERY Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Blackpool, Lancashire, UK. Posts: 1,488	Re: Newbie - Grundig TK120 repair The belt has to be inserted through the lower flywheel bearing aperture after removing the bearing plate, remove the grease, re grease after insertion of belt & replacement of bearing plate. Colin.

1st Sep 2015, 11:56 am	#6
DOFFERY Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Blackpool, Lancashire, UK. Posts: 1,488	Re: Newbie - Grundig TK120 repair Jon, Check page 17, there is a pic of the underside of the machine, ie. the bearing plate. Colin.

1st Sep 2015, 2:05 pm	#7
jonparker Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK. Posts: 8	Re: Newbie - Grundig TK120 repair Forgive me. Page 17 of what?

1st Sep 2015, 2:32 pm	#8
DOFFERY Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Blackpool, Lancashire, UK. Posts: 1,488	Re: Newbie - Grundig TK120 repair Go back to the opening page of the forum where the various subjects are mentioned & look at the bottom of the page. Colin.

1st Sep 2015, 10:11 pm	#11
Michael Maurice Moderator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wembley, Middlesex Posts: 7,224	Re: Newbie - Grundig TK120 repair The original manual I was using was by an ebay seller called Big Dave, he's no longer active on ebay for some reason. When you bought a belt kit, he included a very comprehensive manual on how to fit the belts. The recommendation for for replacing the belts from underneath came from Grundig themselves. __________________ Forum Moderator http://www.michaelmauricerepairs.co.uk/

1st Sep 2015, 10:21 pm	#12
jonparker Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK. Posts: 8	Re: Newbie - Grundig TK120 repair Righty ho. Better whip the base off then and see what we can see!

3rd Sep 2015, 2:36 pm	#13
Michael Maurice Moderator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wembley, Middlesex Posts: 7,224	Re: Newbie - Grundig TK120 repair You wont find anything from underneath. When you loosen those four screws, the whole mechanism which is locked into place comes out of alignment and is very very tricky to put it back the way it was. Your problems are on top of the deck. __________________ Forum Moderator http://www.michaelmauricerepairs.co.uk/

3rd Sep 2015, 8:23 pm	#14
DOFFERY Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Blackpool, Lancashire, UK. Posts: 1,488	Re: Newbie - Grundig TK120 repair I regret to differ Michael but as you state yourself post 11, the belts have to be fitted from underneath the mechanism. The screws on the top of the deck have been mentioned & it appears the mechanism has been restored. Or have I misunderstood your post 13 ?? Colin.

3rd Sep 2015, 9:48 pm	#15
jonparker Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK. Posts: 8	Re: Newbie - Grundig TK120 repair I too am confused by the reply, although I do speak from the position of zero knowledge!

6th Sep 2015, 8:12 am	#17
jonparker Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK. Posts: 8	Re: Newbie - Grundig TK120 repair The machine is currently in one piece. The top plate has previously been removed to allow for inspection and (presumably) the discovery that one of the drive belts has broken, and then put back together again. So the machine is now in a working state, aside from the no-drive issue. The machine was put back together again and left for some time I suspect, but now their moving house is completed they are starting to slow down a bit and find time for other things, such as this repair. I have yet to load a tape and see what happens. With no tape loaded and the machine put into PLAY mode, would there be drive to the right hand spool? I would have thought there should be, as this is the reel which pulls the tape through. I do hope that makes sense!

6th Sep 2015, 10:53 am	#18
julie_m Dekatron Join Date: May 2008 Location: Derby, UK. Posts: 7,735	Re: Newbie - Grundig TK120 repair The right-hand spool doesn't pull the tape through -- it merely catches the tape that has been pulled through by the capstan and pinch roller drive. It also has to start off fast, but slow down as the tape plays. So it must be driven through some sort of friction clutch, which can slip to limit the energy imparted to the spool. If the take-up spool carrier is fouling on anything, it will not move in PLAY. Exact arrangements vary from recorder to recorder; but there is usually a belt driving the friction clutch plate in PLAY, and an idler driving the spool carrier directly from the outside in FAST FORWARD. __________________ If I have seen further than others, it is because I was standing on a pile of failed experiments.

6th Sep 2015, 7:34 pm	#19
DOFFERY Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Blackpool, Lancashire, UK. Posts: 1,488	Re: Newbie - Grundig TK120 repair There are two belts on your machine, or should be, one drives the flywheel from the motor,the other drives the R Hand take up spool from the flywheel . You mentioned originally you had a broken belt, this could be either belt as without a flywheel running, the take up spool will not be driven, nor would the T. Up spool be driven if that belt was missing. 1. Does the flywheel run, this is easy to see.? If not, this belt is missing/broken, assuming the motor is running. 2. Does the pinch roller meet the flywheel shaft when in play position, if so does the pinch roller turn, again assuming the flywheel is running.? Without this basic info. difficult to assist further at this point. Cheers. Colin.

7th Sep 2015, 1:21 pm	#20
jonparker Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK. Posts: 8	Re: Newbie - Grundig TK120 repair Thanks for your assistance thus far. I shall attempt to investigate further when time permits. The broken belt has been removed from the machine and I have measured it to be 280mm in length. The kit which my mum in law has purchased contains two belts, and the broken one which needs to be replaced appears to be the shorter of the two belts.